Ammonia Exposure During Acclimation Process

[Corona99]

I am relatively new to this forum since I have been out of the hobby for some time. In retirement I decided to get back in the hobby with Discus (long time bucket list item). Needless to say it didn't take long to make my first costly mistake. I received 6 (3.3.5") Discus yesterday (8/5/2020) about 10:00 AM and thought I was following the suppliers drip method acclimation instruction to the letter only to find out it did not apply when the destination tank PH is higher (7.4 in my case) than the bagged fish. As a result all of the fish were probably exposed to some level of toxic ammonia for 30-45 minutes. Needless to say all 6 of them are alive in my tank but acting abnormally (mostly hiding as a group, not eating, etc). Their color is still good but there is evidence of light fin burn on at least two of them. I have some questions for anyone who may have some experience here.

1. Will these fish recover and in what time frame?
2. Is there any treatment for this?
3. What can be done at this point?
4. Your thoughts?

Best Regards

[Oxboy]

If the issue was just what you describe, yes they will recover. If they are still hiding as a group or not eating in a week, something is wrong.
Go thru the discus best practices checklist: make sure the temps are steady 86 degrees. Feed them 3x a day with a rotation of a half dozen quality flakes, granules and freeze-dried foods. I'd do a 20% water change daily at first to get them used to the routine and your water. Make sure your incoming water has the same pH and temp as tank water.

What size is the tank? Any other fish in there?

[BrendanJ23]

In my experience and my knowledge, it doesn’t matter if the Ph is higher or lower in the destination tank. It matters to slowly acclimate (via drip method) over a few hours in order to avoid shocking the fish.

If your fish have come by mail, it would not be considered uncommon for them to not eat and be shy for the first few days. As mentioned above, large daily water changes with fresh clean water, making sure to match parameters (temp, ph )

[bluelagoon]

The only concern with drip method, they would be exposed to ammonia when you first open the bag. Best to get them out quickly after the water becomes the same temp as the tank. The pop and drop method is the best to avoid this.

[Megalodon]

The only concern with drip method, they would be exposed to ammonia when you first open the bag. Best to get them out quickly after the water becomes the same temp as the tank. The pop and drop method is the best to avoid this.

It takes several hours for CO2 to diffuse out of the water.

2020-04-09 01_19_16-Sci-Hub _ A new experimental technique for validating exchange models of car.png

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Wayne,

When you are having fish shipped overnight it is best to do drop and plop. This is where you set the bag in the tank to allow the bag to come to the temperature of the tank. Then you remove the bag, cut the top of the bag but do not allow air to enter the bag. Pour the water out of the bag into a bucket or sink and ease the fish into the tank. You never add the dirty bag water to the tank. If you allow air to enter the bag the ammonia in the bag become toxic resulting in burning the fins which creates the whitest edge to the fins.

When fish are shipped overnight they are fasted for 24 hours prior to shipping. This is so the fish do not poop in the bag making the water dirty. However the fish pee in the bag and this makes the ph in the bag drop into a ph below 7. Remember the fish also generate ammonia and the lower ph in the bag renders the ammonia harmless. When you get the bag, open it and expose the bag water to air this allows the ph to raise and the ammonia becomes toxic and burns the fins. Also discus handle a rise in ph much better then a decease.

hths,
Pat

[Corona99]

Thanks for the information. I have a 65 gal. tank and currently the 6 discus are the only inhabitants. I cycled the tank without fish over the last month before ordering the Discus. All critical water qualities are good (Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrates <10) My current GH is 170 and KH 51. I live in the Midwest where the PH is high and the water is hard. The biggest issue with the feeding right now is every time I approach the tank they head for the back corner of the tank and show no interest in food. I initially had the tank at 84 degrees but after reading some more information in this forum I raised it to 87 overnight and this morning before I approached the tank they were all out swimming typically as a group. I will try your suggestions Thanks!

[Corona99]

Thanks Pat - The drop method is what the supplier actually recommended but their web site acclimation info said drip instead of drop.

[Corona99]

Thanks for the information!

[dspeers]

Not sure where the time vs pCO2 curve above came from but diffusion rate is accelerated by partial pressure difference, which would be markedly increased as soon as the bag is opened in addition to surface area vs volume, which in the bag is extremely high. For example if you hold your breath your pO2 will drop in < 60 seconds and CO2 diffusion is ~ 20x faster than O2. Point is that CO2 will drop immediately as soon as the bag is open and as goes CO2 so goes pH inversely. Also even if the tank water pH starts higher than that the bag, it probably will not be for long.

So the question is, you are driving home from your favorite store, takes about 3 hours, another traffic disaster day in wonderful NJ. You get home and pull out a 3 cc syringe and 22 ga needle pull a sample from the bag and then float it in your destination tank. While the temp is equilibrating you check the ammonia level, at what point do you decide to opt for drop vs drip, and how much does pH differential matter in that decision. There are several pH vs ammonia level toxicity charts, any recommendation on best?

[Iminit]

Seems like you’ve got all the right info . Now just keep changing the water daily. At least 50%. How about some pictures . I know it’s done already but when I get shipped discus I do one more step to the drop and plop. I take a bucket of tank water than I remove the discus from their bag and add to the tank water bucket. Let them sit in there for a few minutes than into the qt tank. This way the bag water doesn’t end up in my tank.

[Megalodon]

Not sure where the time vs pCO2 curve above came from but diffusion rate is accelerated by partial pressure difference, which would be markedly increased as soon as the bag is opened in addition to surface area vs volume, which in the bag is extremely high. For example if you hold your breath your pO2 will drop in < 60 seconds and CO2 diffusion is ~ 20x faster than O2. Point is that CO2 will drop immediately as soon as the bag is open and as goes CO2 so goes pH inversely. Also even if the tank water pH starts higher than that the bag, it probably will not be for long.

So the question is, you are driving home from your favorite store, takes about 3 hours, another traffic disaster day in wonderful NJ. You get home and pull out a 3 cc syringe and 22 ga needle pull a sample from the bag and then float it in your destination tank. While the temp is equilibrating you check the ammonia level, at what point do you decide to opt for drop vs drip, and how much does pH differential matter in that decision. There are several pH vs ammonia level toxicity charts, any recommendation on best?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...568?via%3Dihub

They pumped in alternative air and CO2 atmospheres. The partial pressure difference would be as much or even greater. And the surface area:volume ratio is as great or greater than a bag.

I declare the myth busted.

[Megalodon]

Doesn't look like 20X faster to me...

2020-08-07 11_07_06-Diffusion Coefficients of Gases in Water - Chromium.png

[Oxboy]

Thanks for the information. I have a 65 gal. tank and currently the 6 discus are the only inhabitants. I cycled the tank without fish over the last month before ordering the Discus. All critical water qualities are good (Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrates <10) My current GH is 170 and KH 51. I live in the Midwest where the PH is high and the water is hard. The biggest issue with the feeding right now is every time I approach the tank they head for the back corner of the tank and show no interest in food. I initially had the tank at 84 degrees but after reading some more information in this forum I raised it to 87 overnight and this morning before I approached the tank they were all out swimming typically as a group. I will try your suggestions Thanks!

Sounds like they are just skittish from the transition. IMHO be sure to offer up different textures and attributes of food: sinking vs floating, flakes vs granules, frozen vs freeze-dried, etc. I feel like this kind of variety helps pique their natural curiosity and gives ven the most finicky eaters something to gravitate towards. Also conventional wisdom says don't give them big decorations to hide behind or under or they will opt to hide more instead of being out and about.

[Oxboy]

Another thing to do is throw a dozen cardinal tetras in there. Of course without quarantine, this could be disastrous in terms of parasite and illness spreading but if after a week, they are still hiding (but look otherwise healthy), you could order some dither tetras from a very reputable online source (to give you the best shot at clean healthy fish) and have them delievered in 48 hours.