Severe HITH in Wild Discus: Microsscopic phtots of fecal matter

[sumer]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
Fish acquired in March 2020. a couple of fish out of the batch had some marks of HITH on their faces.
3 weeks ago they were being fasted to get them to eat prepared shrimp mix. That's when this broke out and it spread very fast.

I started with Metro thinking it's either Hexamaita or Spironucleus. Well, yesterday I happened to look at a fecal sample and see these weird creatures in there. They seem to be dead or not miving.
They have a weird head. Are they just reminiscence of FDBW? Or does it look like something else more fatal?

I have NOT treated yet with Fenbendazole or Prazi recently. Last I did that was in may or june when they were still going through QT. Maybe that will help?




2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Fish are very active and eating heavy. It's just that HITH is pretty severe.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
10 day long Metro treatment (orally- FDBW soaked in Mtero + 20mg/gallon in the water column with 70% water change every day).


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
220 gallon
8 months old
Overfilterered through a sump
15 adult Wild Trombetas discus


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
Normally every 3rd day with gravel vac.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
8 months. Has sand about 1/4th inch thick on an average


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
Don't age water. pH is 7.5 out of the tap and it stays at 7.4.
TDS: 75 ppm.


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
Seachem Prime

9. Parameters and water source;
Tap water filtered through 3 carbon blocks. Chloramine and Chlorine are 0 after running through carbon.

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 85

- ph 7.4

- ammonia reading 0 ppm

- nitrite reading 0 ppm

- nitrate reading < 20 ppm

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water 100%

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

No new additions. This is the only fish that's in the tank.

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

FDBW soacked in Garlic Guard and Vita Chem - Twice a day.

12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Photos of one such fish from the batch-

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Photos of the fecal matter under microscope-

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[LizStreithorst]

HITH is supposedly caused by a spirochet. If you see something round and spinning, that what hex looks like.

[danotaylor]

I recall seeing images of those wormy things on here last year sometime, and that they are present in the FDBW, and that they were harmless. I believe no connection between the poop issue and the HITH...
Check out this thread, they're the hairs of digested worms. The hairs are called setae (last post in the thread comment by Al;
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ght=Worms+FDBW

[Second Hand Pat]

I am not seeing an active HITH Sumer. I see your TDS is only 75. Can you measure your GH (API KH/GH test kit). If your mineral content is low adding minerals might be helpful. Also how much water are you changing every third day?
Pat

[sumer]

HITH is supposedly caused by a spirochet. If you see something round and spinning, that what hex looks like.

Okay, then here is another thing I see in the fecal. And this is the poop that never touched the substrate or the bottom. I used my secret ninja skills to collect it midwater-

I recall seeing images of those wormy things on here last year sometime, and that they are present in the FDBW, and that they were harmless. I believe no connection between the poop issue and the HITH...
Check out this thread, they're the hairs of digested worms. The hairs are called setae (last post in the thread comment by Al;
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ght=Worms+FDBW

I think you are right. The shape and the structure matches it. I will probably do some more tests with just soaked BW's to see if I can see similar structure in there.

I am not seeing an active HITH Sumer. I see your TDS is only 75. Can you measure your GH (API KH/GH test kit). If your mineral content is low adding minerals might be helpful. Also how much water are you changing every third day?
Pat

Pat,
I think the video below will show it better.
General Hardness (GH) is 64 ppm and Carbonate hardness (KH) is between 10 to 20 ppm. I uses Hach test kits to get these values.
Not sure if it matters but by the third day my phosphates reach 0.2 ppm. It's mostly because the FDBW. I have run tests on just DI water infused with FDBW cube and the phosphate levels reach 0.4-0.5 easily by mixing 1 FDBW cube in 500 ml DI water.
Every third day I chage between 60 to 75% water with a gravel vac.

[sumer]

All,

A couple of answers and clarifications.

So those things in the fecal is actually setae like Dan said.
The microorganisms in my video are Tetrahymena which are common microorganisms that inhabit freshwatrer bodies including aquarium. They are harmless too.

I also do not run carbon or any type of chemical resins in my sump. It's just 5-6 liters of Seachem Matrix. I have also removed the reactor that was full of Seachem Nitrazorb.

Next theory is stray voltage in the aquarium. That I am going to check again with a multimeter. I do have a grounding probe installed in the aquarium BUT if the whole power strip is lacking grounding, that probe isn't doing much either.

Gotta love this fish. I have 20+ species in my fishroom including Altums etc. but this fish gives me the most trouble. On top of that, gotta love the problems that I can't understand the root cause of.
It's a love hate relationship for sure.

[Rick S]

Yes, I believe that is HITH that I have dealt with several times. I have always found it to be water quality related. The remedy that has worked for me is daily heavy water changes - 50% and salt - one table spoon per ten gallons. Hope this helps and keep us informed.

Rick