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Thread: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

  1. #1
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    Default water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    I need your opinion about the subject: How to make perfect wáter conditions for discus breeding.
    I started a year and half ago with 10 discus in big acuarium and now I have 10 acuarios.
    A year ago the pairs starting to form and all problems with egg eaters, no hatching, no attaching I attributed to facts that they are young pairs and unexperienced. During 6 months I selected new pairs and still I did not establish good water conditions to breed.
    What is a problem now?
    The water in Valencia, Spain is extremely hard and all this time I was trying to optimize the conditions. Ppm 800 of my tap water, ph 9.
    I am using Ro Water. My Ro water on the exit is 60ppm. I have aqua medic with additional 2 sediment and 1 carbon prefilter columns (+2 already included as prefilters). For my growing tank I use 70% Ro/ waste30%. Waste is around 1000ppm.
    The water in my growing tank (100 galons) is ph 6,4. 500 ppm. I am changing water every 3 days 60%. I have 2 canister filters Fluval Fx6 and turbo 1000l/h
    Now breeding tanks; 30 gallons, aqua clear filters, 250-300 ppm, ph 6,8. Water is made by 90% Ro/10% Waste. Changing water every second day 50%.
    Now I have 6 breeding tanks with pairs and I am starting to worry that is obvious problem in water because all breeding tanks the symptoms are the same. Laying eggs every 7 days and the eggs are gradualy eaten by parents. Sometimes become wringlers but low number, no attachment, too weaks.
    Now I am optimizing with pure Ro water just on day that I think that the spawning will occur.
    My questions:
    1. With these water conditions in my tap water how to make ideal conditions to increase hatching rate?
    2. Any experience with water softeners, raisins? I ask this because I have to change my Ro membrane every 3-4 months. I know that water softeners use salt to regenerate because they change the sodium ion for Ca and Mg, but everybody says that Na ion is toxic and it s not good to apply this. Contrary, I have local discus shop seller who claims that he is using decalcificator (with salt) to make a water for growing discus in his shop. He is not selling nice special discus, they are Asian but sorted and in perfect conditions in this water. And he is ordering them small (5-6cm) and maintaining in these water conditions during months (this is true. They are really healthy and nice during months growing nicely). Is there any rasins that use H+ ion and can be regenerated with hydrochloric acid (HCl). Changing H+ ion for Ca and Mg. H+ ion decreases ph in water but aging of this water can eliminate H+ ion. If youknow some special brand please let me know.Opinion and experience with this kind of stuff?
    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    the correct word is resin

  3. #3
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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    Congratulations on getting this far, Slaven. This R/O issue is usually discussed in a far more complicated manner that is necessary. Here's a simple way to handle this. By now, you have a good idea when the fish will spawn. Females clean cones often. But when the male starts to clean, it's usually time for spawning. You just need to do the following.

    Get some containers of R/O water ready. When the male starts to clean the cone, drain 50% - 75% of the water out of your breeding tank and replace it with R/O water. That's all you need to do. (I do 100%, but not everything is as brave.) The female will lay down the spawn and the male will follow and everything is done after 45 minutes. In 60 hours, the eggs will hatch and you're off!.

    Once the male finishes his fertilization runs, the hardness of the water is no longer important. The eggs will hatch in hard water, the wrigglers will go free swimming in hard water and you certainly know how to raise discus in hard water. The only phase that needs soft water is the fertilization step, which takes ~45 minutes in my experience.

    Don't try to make R/O water. Don't try to set up fancy filtration. Just buy 60 - 80 liters of R/O water from your local fish store and watch your discus.

    Good luck, Willie
    At my age, everything is irritating.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    Congratulations on getting this far, Slaven. This R/O issue is usually discussed in a far more complicated manner that is necessary. Here's a simple way to handle this. By now, you have a good idea when the fish will spawn. Females clean cones often. But when the male starts to clean, it's usually time for spawning. You just need to do the following.

    Get some containers of R/O water ready. When the male starts to clean the cone, drain 50% - 75% of the water out of your breeding tank and replace it with R/O water. That's all you need to do. (I do 100%, but not everything is as brave.) The female will lay down the spawn and the male will follow and everything is done after 45 minutes. In 60 hours, the eggs will hatch and you're off!.

    Once the male finishes his fertilization runs, the hardness of the water is no longer important. The eggs will hatch in hard water, the wrigglers will go free swimming in hard water and you certainly know how to raise discus in hard water. The only phase that needs soft water is the fertilization step, which takes ~45 minutes in my experience.

    Don't try to make R/O water. Don't try to set up fancy filtration. Just buy 60 - 80 liters of R/O water from your local fish store and watch your discus.

    Good luck, Willie
    Thank you for your answer. Willy your answers are always useful. One question. How do you do your water Change after Ro and after the fertilization?
    Gradually? Every day until fries swim?

    Thanks

  5. #5
    Silver Member Willie's Avatar
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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    Hi Slaven;

    How often I do water changes during spawning is primarily a function of the strain. Classic types like Turquoise, Brown Discus, Blue Diamonds have fry that attach well, so water changes up to 80% daily have worked for me starting 4 - 5 days free swimming. Many PB types, particularly the more beautiful ones, have difficulty with fry attachment. I leave these alone for at least a week. When the fry are on their own after 3 - 4 weeks, I do 100% daily with tap water. No R/O is necessary after fertilization.

    All this assumes that you're using conditioned water at the same or very close temperature to the tank water. Very young fry are more susceptible to water changes than adult fish. Nevertheless, we invariably underestimate the amount of ammonia a swarm of fry can produce. They feed constantly and they respire rapidly, so degradation in water quality can be rapid. The adults are also producing copious amounts of slime, which collects on all internal surfaces and leads to a jump in bacterial growth. I try to counteract this effect by overstocking the breeding and grow out tanks with sponge filters, but nothing substitutes for big water changes and wiping down the tank walls and floor.

    Willie
    At my age, everything is irritating.

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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    Hi Slaven;

    How often I do water changes during spawning is primarily a function of the strain. Classic types like Turquoise, Brown Discus, Blue Diamonds have fry that attach well, so water changes up to 80% daily have worked for me starting 4 - 5 days free swimming. Many PB types, particularly the more beautiful ones, have difficulty with fry attachment. I leave these alone for at least a week. When the fry are on their own after 3 - 4 weeks, I do 100% daily with tap water. No R/O is necessary after fertilization.

    All this assumes that you're using conditioned water at the same or very close temperature to the tank water. Very young fry are more susceptible to water changes than adult fish. Nevertheless, we invariably underestimate the amount of ammonia a swarm of fry can produce. They feed constantly and they respire rapidly, so degradation in water quality can be rapid. The adults are also producing copious amounts of slime, which collects on all internal surfaces and leads to a jump in bacterial growth. I try to counteract this effect by overstocking the breeding and grow out tanks with sponge filters, but nothing substitutes for big water changes and wiping down the tank walls and floor.

    Willie
    DEar Willy,
    this information is also useful but I meant when the pair lay the eggs and after the laying the eggs is completed (after the complete wC change to pure Ro).
    The following days do you do regulary WC every day?
    And do you add gradually normal water mixture or tap? Or streith to the normal water?
    When I was reading your previous answer just one of my pairs was in phase before laying the eggs.
    I changed 80% water to pure Ro
    Now they are laying the eggs.
    I will keep you informed.
    If it works Willy for president

  7. #7
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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    Sorry you have already answered to my doubdts thanks. I will report the results.
    This pair is blue diamond and Tyger checkerboard

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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    A water softener will make your RO membrane last longer, RO membranes are designed for desalination (i.e. Na+ removal). At 800 ppm you have water that is saturated with CaCO3 and will cause salt creep, scale and impact your pumps etc over time.

    My tap water is ~400 ppm and I mix 2/3 non-softened water with 1/3 RO water (RO filter after water softener), that prevents any CaCO3 buildup in my tank. I'm not trying to breed.

    Willie how hard is your tap water?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    Hi Slaven;

    How often I do water changes during spawning is primarily a function of the strain. Classic types like Turquoise, Brown Discus, Blue Diamonds have fry that attach well, so water changes up to 80% daily have worked for me starting 4 - 5 days free swimming. Many PB types, particularly the more beautiful ones, have difficulty with fry attachment. I leave these alone for at least a week. When the fry are on their own after 3 - 4 weeks, I do 100% daily with tap water. No R/O is necessary after fertilization.

    All this assumes that you're using conditioned water at the same or very close temperature to the tank water. Very young fry are more susceptible to water changes than adult fish. Nevertheless, we invariably underestimate the amount of ammonia a swarm of fry can produce. They feed constantly and they respire rapidly, so degradation in water quality can be rapid. The adults are also producing copious amounts of slime, which collects on all internal surfaces and leads to a jump in bacterial growth. I try to counteract this effect by overstocking the breeding and grow out tanks with sponge filters, but nothing substitutes for big water changes and wiping down the tank walls and floor.

    Willie
    Willie,
    thank for advice. It seems it works, this pair has about 100 babies alredy successfully attached. Other pairs I still trying to catch when they lay the eggs. The problem is to perform the water change to RO immediatelly before the laying the eggs. I missed for two pairs. Now they are preparing to lay again and I will try again.
    Thanks

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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    A water softener will make your RO membrane last longer, RO membranes are designed for desalination (i.e. Na+ removal). At 800 ppm you have water that is saturated with CaCO3 and will cause salt creep, scale and impact your pumps etc over time.

    My tap water is ~400 ppm and I mix 2/3 non-softened water with 1/3 RO water (RO filter after water softener), that prevents any CaCO3 buildup in my tank. I'm not trying to breed.

    Willie how hard is your tap water?
    It would be very interesting to investigate which ions or minerals are necesarry for successful hatching or which ions or minerals should be avoided for successful breeding. It is obvious that Ca and Mg make eggs hard to fertilize but the question is if we remove these calcifying ions we should have successful hatching and number but this is not true. Maybe one proper water investigation with detailed water analisys could save a lot of time and money

  11. #11
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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    Calcium ions, not magnesium, controls a number of cellular responses in all living things. Fertilization is one of these processes. (Students taking biochemistry learn this as the "second messenger effect".) Once a sperm fertilizes an egg, calcium ions are released which alters membrane permeability to prevent fertilization by subsequent sperms. This feature is essentially common to most animal life forms. Obviously discus evolved in almost pure water and its egg membrane is far more sensitive to very low levels of calcium. Discus eggs laid in hard water react as if they're already fertilized, blocking any sperm penetration.

    As a practical matter, hard water contains both calcium and magnesium. Water that goes through a consumer grade water softener has lower levels of calcium and magnesium, but higher sodium. It'd be interested to know whether softened water has sufficiently reduced levels of calcium to permit fertilization. In any case, sodium and magnesium have no effect on fertility.
    At my age, everything is irritating.

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    Default Re: water softeners for water discus and water for breeding

    When I test the gh of my softened water with the API kit it is titrated by 1 drop. For reference my RO output does the same and my unsoftened is ~18 drops for the titration.

    If chemistry = biochemistry then I'd say maybe...

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