A couple of questions for Cliff

[LizStreithorst]

There are two things having to do with water and breeding I've always wondered about. A friend who I respect the knowledge of says that it's the gH that keeps the eggs from hatching. I have always believed that it's the kH. Willie says that he switches to RO water just before the pair spawns and after they are done goes back to RO. It works for him. What I have always done is go to RO before the pair spawns and wait until the wigglers hatch out to before I go back to aged tap. My belief is that the hard water will make the eggs too hard for the babies to be able to hatch. I'd appreciate it if you could give your opinion on these two things.

[CliffsDiscus]

Liz,
I'm going to have to agree with your friend about the hardness. With high hardness the shell has a build up of minerals making it more difficult
to hatch out. What Willie is doing works out for him but your water and my water are different. My water runs around 70 to 120 ppm hardness,
last check on around 4 to 7kh and ph 8.9. I use straight tap on all tanks(50 plus). When there is a spawning I pull out the eggs after one hour, either
place the eggs in straight RO or straight dechlorine water. The eggs goes in a one gallon bottle of pitcher. The pitcher is place inside the aquarium.
One hour before hatching 72 hours eggs are move to straight tap, water from another pair or water from the original pair. After a couple more days fry are free swimming and I could pour the fry back to the original pair or to a foster pair and last option is to pan raise.

I don't know if this answers your questions but I got a little carried away.

Cliff

[coralbandit]

This interest me ..
Cliff do you use TDS measurements at all or know your tap waters TDS ?

[CliffsDiscus]

This interest me ..
Cliff do you use TDS measurements at all or know your tap waters TDS ?

No TDS measurements, only time there is a water problem is when the utility company is working on the pipes, or rainy season then
I will do some measuring and also check with my local Discus Shop(Fairly Lake Discus).
Most of the time if there is an behavioral change then it might be the water, it kind of
like you know when your kids are sick.

Cliff

[JamesW]

Are you on a well Liz?

If yes you could sub in water softener treated water for RO to answer if it is KH vs GH that lowers the hatching/fertilization rate.

Cliff is on the virgin snow melt feeding the hetch hetchy reservoir. Cliff do you see a drop in your pH after aging?

[CliffsDiscus]

Are you on a well Liz?

If yes you could sub in water softener treated water for RO to answer if it is KH vs GH that lowers the hatching/fertilization rate.

Cliff is on the virgin snow melt feeding the hetch hetchy reservoir. Cliff do you see a drop in your pH after aging?

James,
No aging just straight tap with Amquel. It been a drought year so less tanks.

Cliff

[Willie]

Cliff's comment is on point because the correct approach depends on your existing tap water conditions. Both he and I have relatively soft water. In Minneapolis, the municipal plant recently added an industrial process that reduces the softness of the tap water (no salt added). My tap water is now 65 ppm, very similar to what Cliff gets coming from the Mono Lake reservoir. Our recommendations may be adjusted if we both had very alkaline aquifer water coming through the faucet.

That said, the Ca+2 effect I described is a cellular response, that is one cell - in this case the egg cell - reacting to a cation. Hatching is an activity that involves an entire organism, easily > 1,000 cells operating in unison. I'm not sure what is the mechanism of hatching in fish, but it bears no relationship to fertilization. Just want to make sure everyone understands that what may be true for a cellular process, in this case fertilization, has no bearing on a whole organism process.

[JamesW]

I'm so jealous, I lived in the SF bay area for 8 years and had access to some of the best water in the USA but didn't have the time/money/space to keep fish.

Now in Madison on municipal wells, the water is safe but I can't handle the calcium deposits so I blend with RO water.

Based on your knowledge, water softened water (Ca2+ free) should have the same impact on fertilization rates for us well-water folk. Is that right?

[LizStreithorst]

Cliff do you know your kH and gH? Both contribute to overall hardness. My gH is 0 and always has been. My kH is 4.5.

[LizStreithorst]

James, I'm on community water. Since I'm able to use my RO waste combined with tap water for fry, juvies and adults I don't bother with a water softener.

[JamesW]

With the water you have there is no need for a softener!

[LizStreithorst]

You would think that, but I still get impossible hard water stains that even scrubbing with strong cleaning vinegar won't come off. I think that my kH is totally made up of calcium carbonate. I swear, water chemistry is so complex that I will never totally understand how all it's parts work.

[Willie]

I'm so jealous, I lived in the SF bay area for 8 years and had access to some of the best water in the USA but didn't have the time/money/space to keep fish.

Now in Madison on municipal wells, the water is safe but I can't handle the calcium deposits so I blend with RO water.

Based on your knowledge, water softened water (Ca2+ free) should have the same impact on fertilization rates for us well-water folk. Is that right?

I don't know that softened water is calcium free. Water softeners use an ion-exchange system, but the exchange is not close to 100%. Maybe your appliance manual can offer guidance, but I couldn't speculate.

Sorry, Willie

[CliffsDiscus]

Cliff do you know your kH and gH? Both contribute to overall hardness. My gH is 0 and always has been. My kH is 4.5.

My GH runs around 70 to 120 ppm and the kh is around between 4 to 7 , usually when the kh drops too low a buffer is needed.

Cliff

[LizStreithorst]

This is strange. From what you say I should be able to get hatches in straight tap. I have had a few angels that produced in tap water and around that time I had a Discus pair produce wigglers. But mostly I need RO. But every time I have tested my water the numbers comes out the same. I think I'll just keep doing what has worked best in the past.

So is it mostly the gH or the kH that makes it hard for the eggs to be fertilized and have wigglers hatch or is it a combination of both. I believe that the calcium carbonate (kH) is the culprit.