Introduction, Unhappy Fish, and General Request for Feedback

[dnkn]

Hi all. In the past, I kept tanks filled with SA and CA cichlids. Recently, a friend gave my son a 25G tank, and helping him get set up and maintain his tank rekindled my interest. This time, I'm trying discuss.
I haven't had much of a presence on forum yet, but I've been using it extensively to research all the questions I've come up with as I embark on this adventure. It's a fantastic resource.

So I've been meaning to get this introductory post up for several weeks, but there's a lot to say, and I've been busy. I have a lot of questions, but mostly I'm just trying to get all this detail out there so when something comes up, I don't need to start from scratch with the explanation. Please share if you have some insight on anything specific, but don't feel like you have to address everything. Maybe I should have started a bunch of different threads. But I didn't, so here it is.

The Fish

I know that some recommend starting with adult fish. But I really wanted to try growing out my own juveniles.

After considering many options, I decided to get my first discus from Hans. On November 25, I received 45 2.5" discus. Why so many? Good question. I guess I like to jump into things big. I don't plan to keep all 45. Once they've grown, I'll probably keep the best 20 or so and move them into a 220G with a 180G sump that I'm slowly setting up. The remaining survivors will be rehomed. I also plan to try breeding when the time comes. I got 5 each of the following 9 strains from Hans: Marlboro Red, Pigeon Blood Red, Pigeon Blood Silver, White Leopard, Blue Diamond, Red Scribbled, Brilliant Turquoise, German Wonder, Flachen (Solid) x Snakeskin. My understanding is that the first 3 are PB variants and the last 5 are not. I couldn't find anything definitive on the Leopards, so this is the first of my many questions for the forum. Could someone clarify if Leopards are PB, and verify my understanding of the others?

Here are a couple of shots from the day after they arrived:

PXL_20201127_072550100 (1).jpg PXL_20201127_040316655.jpg

The Setup

For the initial grow out, I set up a 75G tank with a 75G sump. I figured the extra water volume would be an advantage. Hans and others (including the instructions from Stendker) recommend that a growout tank should be sized at about 1G/fish when they're in the 2"-4" range. So I have my tank divided with egg crate, keeping the fish in about 2/3s of the 75G.

For water changes, I do a combination of things. I have a drip system that drips about 7.5 gallons an hour into the tank. I realize that dripping 75G into a 150G system over the course of 10 hours isn't the same as doing a 75G water change every 10 hours. But I ran some calcs using this "Effective Water Change Calculator" - https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/...aterChange.php - and I'm confident that the drip is doing the equivalent of about 60 - 70% a day. I also like how it maintains more consistent water parameters. In addition, I siphon out about 50G every other day, allowing another drip line with higher volume (about 12G/H) fill the tank back to full over the next few hours. I'm not sure I'll continue doing that, but I think it helps for now.

I had the tank set up for about a month before getting the fish. I cycled using pure ammonia. Cycle seems to be complete and stable, although I think it had to ramp up a little to handle the 45 fish load.

I've added some plants over the last few weeks, but as you can see, they're not in with the fish. I'm not sure if it's a good idea, but my thinking is that they would help keep nitrate levels low.

About 2 weeks in, I divided the tank, putting the biggest most aggressive eaters in one compartment (left/27 total), and the smaller more timid fish in the other (right/18 total). I noticed after feeding the group that some were getting left behind. So I fed the whole batch a big meal, and then moved out the little guys who didn't look full. I think it's helped, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Here's a shot of the setup as it looks now:

PXL_20201217_060218677.jpg

The Water

My water come straight from the tap. I'm on a well, so no concerns about chlorine.

The parameters from the tap are:

pH: 7.4
NH3/NH4: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 0
KH: 11
GH: 300 (yes it's very hard)

I have a water softener, and I used the softened water for the first few days. But I'm now running pre-softened water into the tank after reading some different opinions.

So this brings me to another question. I've read that water softened with potassium chloride may be better for the fish. I'm thinking of mixing the water, maybe starting with 50/50 pre-softened and softened with KCl. The main reason is that the calcium builds up pretty fast with such a high GH. I'm hoping the mix might bring the hardness down without stripping with water of essential elements and overloading with sodium, the main detractors I read about NaCl softened water. I'd be happy to hear what the forum thinks.

I don't age my water. I haven't been able to discern that it makes any difference. The water comes out of the tap at 7.4, and in general, it stays at 7.4 (more on this later). Again, I'm curious what the forums thoughts are on water aging. I'll do it if I have to, but I'd really rather not if there's no real advantage.

Water temp is kept around 87F. When I suck out 50G and let the fast drip refill the tank, the incoming water is cold, so it brings the temp down a few degrees, but I'm pretty sure it never get's below 84.

I test every day, and always have the following:

NH3/NH4: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 0

PXL_20201220_191620431.MP.jpg

I know the picture makes the NH3/NH4 solution look a tinge green. I think it's picking up some color from the card in that shot. IRL, it's pure yellow.
Also, I'm sure some will notice that the pH is 8.2. That's an anomaly as of today. More on that later.


Feeding

I'm feeding about 5 times a day with a combination including Hans' beefheart mix, FDBW, BW pellets, and FD Tubifex. In general, they eat like piranhas. I feed the BH by hand, and just attach it. It's pretty fun. I think some of them would eat until they exploded. I haven't tried of course. But I have fed them till they have a pretty big bulge in their bellies.


Concerns

I've been concerned about the White Leopards from the beginning. All five of them show stress coloring pretty consistently. They all pepper or stripe up now and then. But it's clearly evident on the the WLs most of the time. Four of the five are among the smallest fish in the group. It wasn't quite so obvious initially, but now after 3.5 weeks, it's very obvious. The WLs were all timid about getting into the mix and eating. One in particular was very clearly the outcast for the first few weeks.

Here he is in the back under the overflow:

PXL_20201130_175446383_exported_11010_1607488434501.jpg

When I first divided the tank, I put all five WLs in with the smaller fish. I move one back in with the big boys because he was eating great in that group and he is bigger than the others. But now that he's in with the the other section, he's often the loaner picking up scraps.
They do seem to be adapting. Most of them are pretty good eaters now, although the one pictured above seems to spit out everything he sucks in. Since the whole batch of one strain seems to be struggling, is it fair to assume that they're just a subpar batch? I don't mean to disparage the vendor. Hans has been great. And I'm sure it happens that some batches are better or worse than others. I'm just wonder how others would interpret this situation.


In the last few days, one of the Silver PBs has moved into the outcast corner. He shows no interest in eating, and never leaves that corner.

PXL_20201217_200817113.MP.jpg

At first, I thought he might have digestion issues, so I dosed the whole tank with epsom salt with no apparent effect.
I also moved him into a hospital tank for a day and dosed the water with metro, epsom salt, and marine salt. The next day, he looked the same and the pH has jumped in that tank to 8.4 (I attributed that to the salt, but I'm not sure). So I put him back in the main tank with the others where he sits in the corner.

I also mixed a dose of metro in with the BH I fed the tank with the last two days. Maybe I'm being hasty with the meds, but from what I've read, metro is pretty safe. And if the WLs and the Silver PBs are the way they are due to a parasite, then I figure they probably all have it.

Today I noticed that my pH has gone up to 8.2. I haven't seen this happen before except in the hospital as just described, although I don't check pH nearly as often as I've been check the N parameters. What might have cause this change? It's been several days since the lasts epsom salt dose on the main tank, so I don't think any of that is left. Might it explain the Silver PBs despondency?


Finally, you may see in the setup shot that I have a little cyano outbreak. Since taking that picture, I'm limiting the light and physically removing it when I can. I have some Furan 2, but I'd like to hear how others have dealt with it, and maybe some suggestions why it's there to begin with.

I better wrap this up now. I've been working on it for over an hour, and my photo uploads are starting to disappear
Looking forward to all your insights, and thank you in advance.

[Willie]

Always enjoy a no-holds-barred approach to the hobby.

At this point, it's far too early to make any judgement on how the discus are doing. Your set up is good. I'd consider the following:

1. Given the high density, increase the drip rate to up the water change, but also wipe down the inside surfaces regularly to avoid bacterial buildup. Rapid growth is critical with Hans' fish to get optimal shape.
2. Increase the number of feedings (at this stage, they can eat up to 8 times a day)
3. Do not segregate the fish yet (bigger ones are males)
4. Impossible to know if the leopards have PB, but I'd suspect so. Stendker (the original breeder) utilize blue PB's to create a white background and I expect that he did the same here.

Your approach to growing out a large group and regular culling is the best approach to ending up with a tank of adults.

Willie

[Iminit]

Wow that’s a lot of discus! Subscribed . I have 2 white leopards. Yes in my opinion they’re pigeon bloods. Mine are the weakest of my group. Still only 3”. Others are approaching 6”. I got them in July. With mine I had a German wonder drop off from the group about a month in. I removed to a 15g by itself for about 2weeks and it came back strong and is now keeping pace with the rest. Me with that many I’d set up a 30-45g just to add the stragglers to. Your going to have some and this may keep them growing. Feed as often as you can and change the water often. Good luck!!

[dnkn]

Thanks for the pointers Willie. You know what's funny? I've been reading this forum non-stop for weeks, I've probably read 100 of your posts, and I just now see that we're neighbors! I live just over the river in WI.

[Shan_Evolved]

I'll take a video of my white leopard later, but you're spot on. My white leopard is one of the smallest in my batch (4-4.5" and hes only 3-3.5"). He doesn't eat AS aggressively but he definitely does eat a lot still.

One thing I did differently with my current batch is follow Al's QT procedure, specifically using levamisole 3 times in 4 weeks. I can't say I'm an expert, but with as much as headache and learning I've had to do, at least with me, the proper QT and stable parameters is all it took to get my 2.5 into 4.5 since..uhm when did I get them.. August? So like 3-4 months? XD

Edit-

An afterthought about something you said regarding the batch quality - definitely truth to it. Hans is a great guy with lots of knowledge, but he sells fish like Mcdonalds sells fries. He and stendker simply cannot quality control every single 2.5" that comes out and unfortunately quite a bit are sent overseas (here) that don't have the best shape at that age. I have had 2 different experiences with Hans - the first batch I hand picked based on great eye to body ratios. But they still ended up with 2 out of 15 that looked smaller than the rest. My second and current experience showed me that sometimes when you see a little 2.5" that just doesn't quite look like it's gonna grow up to be a monster, youre probably right.

Not trying to be a downer, but as your new friend, from your first picture, many of those discus do look subpar in shape and could quite possibly not grow as big or as round. That's just discus in general.

HOWEVER, you will still get some bangers in your group I'm sure. In fact, some of the medium sized discus I have are gorgeous. Completely different in person rather than on a camera, and you will fall in love with them. None of them are "stunted" but still appear rather small, but their colors and personality are what makes them amazing.

Try your hardest not to worry about size and shape, especially if youre doing everything right. You might even see some of them grow really fast after a bit of time. For example one of mine was a whole half inch bigger after the first month, but after 2 months he's been overtaken by a large margin by 4 others of whom are competing to be the biggest. Also remember that some discus don't stop growing until 1.5-2yrs as well as different strains grow different speeds

[LizStreithorst]

You have smart people who have learned from experience here helping you. Willie and Shan are spot on in what they have said.

[dnkn]

Thanks Shan. Great to hear your perspective and experience.

One thing I did differently with my current batch is follow Al's QT procedure, specifically using levamisole 3 times in 4 weeks.

I think I ran across Al's QT procedure, but can't remember where to find it now. Can you point me in the right direction?

[Shan_Evolved]

This is his QT procedure.

However I did a 24hr levamisole bath at the end of week 1, then week 2, skipped a week, then did week 3. That was really all my QT

[dnkn]

Levamisole is on the way.

And I've bumped up the water flow and removed the divider at Willie's recommendation. It never occured to me that I was segregating based on gender. But it makes sense. The "big boys" did act like a bunch of prepubescent boys.

Upon reintegration, they all enjoyed a big tubifex reunion dinner in celebration.
Well, not all ... some just sulked in the corner.

PXL_20201221_030149828.jpg

[seanyuki]

Based on my personal experience.If you want to raise nice discus up the water change to 50% or more a day. And before the discussion gets out of hand this has been proven over and over again. When you have an overstocked tank,more discus and will the fish grow much faster than an under stocked tank,more competition for food ,while the key still maintaining water quality.

[SpeedDiscus]

Wow! 45 discus in one shot is going big for sure!

what the others suggested makes sense.

There will always be some fish that grow faster and some that grow slower, I wouldn't be too alarmed yet if they aren't all of equal size. I have a group of eight that came from the same spawn and two of them are consistently .5-1" slower in growth than the rest. I was worried they weren't eating enough or getting bullied, but it is just natural variation.

Also, I am not the biggest fan of meds right away. I take a more reserved "wait and watch" approach. Some fish are more timid or more sensitive than others, so getting super paranoid and dosing then with meds won't fix the "issue". I have one fish that goes dark more than the rest and stays away to itself more, but it still eats, grows and engages with the group when it wants to.

Overall you are looking great with the setup and fish. I wish you the best of success!

[Willie]

Thanks for the pointers Willie. You know what's funny? I've been reading this forum non-stop for weeks, I've probably read 100 of your posts, and I just now see that we're neighbors! I live just over the river in WI.

When this is all over, I got to see your setup.

[Shan_Evolved]

[Willie]

These two fish look really nice. What are the strain names?

Picture1(DbEVHtYe65b).jpg

[dnkn]

The one on the bottom is a Silver PB, and he's definitely the alpha. The one in the upper left is a Red Scribbled.