Introduction, Unhappy Fish, and General Request for Feedback

[dnkn]

Thanks for the video Shan. Those fish look really good. And despite the size, the leopard is really pretty.

[dnkn]

When this is all over, I got to see your setup.

Fr sure. And I yours. Where in the metro do you live?

[Willie]

I live in South Minneapolis, right by Lake Nokomis. You're welcome to visit the fish room whenever it's safe. Also, I've known Hans back when he still had a shop in Amsterdam, long before he repped Stendker discus. We can compare notes.

[dnkn]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Silver PB in the back?

PXL_20201221_030149828.jpg

I haven't seen him come out in days. I'm afraid he'll be dead soon

[Iminit]

For me I’d put him in a qt and see if it can be saved. 45 is a lot. There will Be weaker fish. Qt raise the temp may save it.

[dnkn]

For me I’d put him in a qt and see if it can be saved. 45 is a lot. There will Be weaker fish. Qt raise the temp may save it.

So you wouldn't suspect illness? I understand there will be weaker fish in a large group, and I'll try what you suggest to bring him up to speed. But if it's indication of an illness, then I worry about the rest of the group too.

BTW, I did QT him for about 24 hours. Maybe that's not long enough to see anything, but there was no improvement in that period of time.

[Iminit]

Shan’s white leopards look very good. Great body shape. These are mine. Center is a Hans checkerboard it’s around 6” to the right is a white leopard with has great coloration but is withering away. It eats just enough to stay alive. No signs of sickness or stress. Swims with all the discus but just doesn’t care for eating. To the left is the other leopard. Not as nice a pattern on it and it the next smallest. But it eats and is solid. Hoping it’s just a slow grower.517F069B-F1C5-4D7D-8A4F-B3FDB28C9390.jpg.
As you see my tank is planted and with substrate. The weaker leopard was qt but never changed. Next it was used as a hero fish and still never changed. It eats but just enough. I started with 8 in a 45 with this group. 60+% water change daily. I think the hormones these fish produce will cause some fish to back down and stress. This happened with a German wonder and I qt it. As soon as it got into the qt it started eating. Stayed there for a few weeks than went back and has been fine since.641976AF-82C7-4BDA-8CA6-3C179DD1A2B7.jpg.
Discus on right.

[Acerrato]

Tom - Your first picture - the center fish is actually a Red Pigeon Blood (Hans' name for them), not a checkerboard. I've attached a photo of my fish for comparison (bad photo - just finished a water change.. but just wanted you to see the difference of the fish side by side). The red fish with the white circles is the checkerboard (on the right), the other yellowish fish with the swirl pattern on the fins (left) is the red pigeon blood. One of my german wonders decided to jump into the photo as well... Lol.

And to the original poster, both of my german wonders and white leopards are my smallest fish from Hans - I personally think it's their genetics that they're the slow growers. My white leopards have always peppered and always show heavy peppering .. I've had them for almost 10 months and I don't think i've ever seen them completely white..
IMG_2004.jpg

[Iminit]

Thanks Amanda. But that Hans!! You don’t get what you order I ordered checkerboards here’s my silver pigeon bloodC57F4F32-06F5-4FD3-8B57-307EA465B55F.jpg looks like a dark angel. And my favorite my red snakeskinB25E6149-C88F-4196-A3C2-8F259267EFFE.jpg the one on the right. It’s a pigeon snakeskin. When I got this second group I thought the white leopard were the checkerboards. But that discus did start out like a checkerboard. But as it’s grown the white dots have expanded.

[Shan_Evolved]

@Tom Fish still look beautiful. I like those dark angels even though the're peppered. Mine is so clean the peppering actually looks kind of cool to me. But that red snakeskin - wow!!!

@Amanda Love the pigeon blood Red!

@Jacob Patience is key my friend. As long as you're doing everything right - water changes, heavy feedings, etc - you should be alright. That said, some of those fish look really dark to me? Is it the lighting or are they actually stressed? Also as far as feeding - when I had my young batch of 11, I fed them 3-4 times a day with beefheart (portion size a bit bigger than a quarter round but 1/8" thick). And they finished it up fast too.

[Iminit]

Thanks Shan. Yes I happy with them it’s just that that’s not what I ordered. I think it to hard to tell what he’s got at the 2.5 size. That red snakeskin is not a red it’s a pigeon.

[chevyvega927]

I've been following and there have been at least three others, besides me on this forum who have received a poor white leopard from Hans! He must have gotten a bad batch. The funny thing is that the thing ate like a little savage but just would not grow. It was also shaped like a football with a beak. I removed it from the tank and treated it for everything under the sun but i think it was just a cull from the start. All the other fish i have from Hans are spectacular and have grown nicely, so i stand by his product compared to a lot of other dealers out there. This brings me to my next point... i have noticed a huge trend of subpar discus in so many hobbyist tanks, and maybe that's because i am just more aware now due to social media and seeing everyone's posts. It almost seems everyone who keeps 6 fish inevitably has 3 that look horrendous.

I have had the opportunity through my travels for work to go and visit many of the big discus dealer's shops in person. What i have found is that they ALLLLLLLL have a RIDICULOUS amount of subpar fish in the tanks, especially at 3.5" and below. One place I went had 1 nice fish for at least every 2 crappy ones. I am not talking color either, I mean these things had eyes that belonged on Oscars, were shaped like an NFL football and had beaks that would rival the most majestic of bald eagles! Now at the 4" and above most had really amazing fish, but by that point there are less to choose from because the crappy ones have probably been already sold or culled. Unfortunately this is the probably the nature of the beast these days, especially when so many people are buying juvenile discus online now. If you get a bad one from the start then no amount of water changes or beef heart is going to change that.

After visiting these shops, I decided I would no longer buy any juveniles online and if i buy an adult i will get a pic of the exact fish before they ship it. If they cannot do that then I can take my business elsewhere. These fish are too expensive to be rolling the dice. Fortunately I live super close to a few of the reputable dealers and can go pick my juveniles in person, otherwise i wouldn't bother.

[chevyvega927]

I'll take a video of my white leopard later, but you're spot on. My white leopard is one of the smallest in my batch (4-4.5" and hes only 3-3.5"). He doesn't eat AS aggressively but he definitely does eat a lot still.

One thing I did differently with my current batch is follow Al's QT procedure, specifically using levamisole 3 times in 4 weeks. I can't say I'm an expert, but with as much as headache and learning I've had to do, at least with me, the proper QT and stable parameters is all it took to get my 2.5 into 4.5 since..uhm when did I get them.. August? So like 3-4 months? XD

Edit-

An afterthought about something you said regarding the batch quality - definitely truth to it. Hans is a great guy with lots of knowledge, but he sells fish like Mcdonalds sells fries. He and stendker simply cannot quality control every single 2.5" that comes out and unfortunately quite a bit are sent overseas (here) that don't have the best shape at that age. I have had 2 different experiences with Hans - the first batch I hand picked based on great eye to body ratios. But they still ended up with 2 out of 15 that looked smaller than the rest. My second and current experience showed me that sometimes when you see a little 2.5" that just doesn't quite look like it's gonna grow up to be a monster, youre probably right.

Not trying to be a downer, but as your new friend, from your first picture, many of those discus do look subpar in shape and could quite possibly not grow as big or as round. That's just discus in general.

HOWEVER, you will still get some bangers in your group I'm sure. In fact, some of the medium sized discus I have are gorgeous. Completely different in person rather than on a camera, and you will fall in love with them. None of them are "stunted" but still appear rather small, but their colors and personality are what makes them amazing.

Try your hardest not to worry about size and shape, especially if youre doing everything right. You might even see some of them grow really fast after a bit of time. For example one of mine was a whole half inch bigger after the first month, but after 2 months he's been overtaken by a large margin by 4 others of whom are competing to be the biggest. Also remember that some discus don't stop growing until 1.5-2yrs as well as different strains grow different speeds

Great Post!!!

[Willie]

...I have had the opportunity through my travels for work to go and visit many of the big discus dealer's shops in person. What i have found is that they ALLLLLLLL have a RIDICULOUS amount of subpar fish in the tanks, especially at 3.5" and below...These fish are too expensive to be rolling the dice. Fortunately I live super close to a few of the reputable dealers and can go pick my juveniles in person, otherwise i wouldn't bother.

Here's a nugget that most hobbyists fail to understand, i.e. buying larger fish means buying better fish.

I'll use Hans' Stendker discus as an example, but it applies to every discus hatchery. Let's say that Georg Stendker produces ~1,000 Flachens. When they reach 5 cm (2 inches), he'll be able to get his first returns from the investment by shipping 400 of them to distributors and/or stores. Six weeks later, they've reached 8 cm (3 inches), Georg may ship 300 of them because most people buy 2" fish than 3" fish. Six week afterwards, Georg ships 100 4" discus, then 50 5" discus six weeks afterwards. At this point, he has 150 5" fish leftover that are starting to pair off. Because Georg is a good breeder, he's far more likely to keep the better fish than ship off the lesser ones. (Everyone of us here who breeds does the same.) You can be sure that every 5" discus left in the nursery is a worthy parent. So if you buy 2" discus, it's a crap shoot. If you buy 5" discus, it's likely the pick of the litter.

I don't claim to have any secret insight into Stendker breeding protocols, but it's just the most obvious approach. A similar approach is likely for Kenny's strains. So the difference between a 5" discus and a 2" discus is more than just 300 water changes. It's likely to have superior genetics.

In this hobby, the best $$ spent is to buy larger discus.

[Acerrato]

Here is a closer look at some of my fish from Hans.. as you can see, they do have beautiful colors.. the white leopard is at the end of the video - you can't miss him, he's my ugly duckling.. still love him though!

https://youtu.be/MEDLbh_QrdE

And Willie - you are absolutely right.... the bigger the fish, the better quality you'll receive (in my personal experience)...

I've purchased 3.5" fish from Hans as well as 5" fish.. The 5" definitely had better shape and colors than some of the smaller ones that I grew out myself.