Need Help w Tank Changes w Lower PH

[sunsetopal]

Hello~and a big UpFront Thank You to all you seasoned Discus Folks who know your stuff and take your precious time out to help out!!!

-I have been trying to figure out how I can take my 7 juvie discus out of their quite small quarantine tank in about a months time and transfer them to a lower PH but bigger, 55 gal tank?? ..........Here's the info:

I had a big problem pop up just 3 days before the Discus arrived on Jan 26th:

* I live on a small island.

*privately owned water company (not well water.. I live in a community) tried talking to them..to no avail.

*Tap water spiked up from a hovering 7.6 - 7.8 for the three weeks I routinely checked it to over 8.6 over night and has stayed there since..just 2 days before Discus arrived.

*I already used an RO system for my drinking water. But it takes an entire day to deliver 7 gallons of RO water

*I promptly bought an Aquatic RO system and immediately set it up and am filling the 55 gallon tank to cycle.

*4 of the 7 discus were visibly stressed at arrival and continue to be so. (bad packing job) One Alenquer staying dark 85% of the time and has tremors and a couple not swimming as upright as they should yet. Eating a little.

* Their PH in the quarantine tank is 7.4 no nitrites, nitrates, ammonia or chlorine. brand new tank, filters, pump etc..

*with the discus having suffered as they have I am worried about their eventual move to the 55 gallon.

*the Ph will be around 6.8 in the 55 g tank or I can add more tap water and bring it to 7.2 =1/7 parts or 2/7parts respectfully

******* Please..How do I introduce them to the 55 gallon with a change of Ph/hardness from.... 7.4 to 6.8

*or would you suggest I keep the 55 gallon at... 7.2

****Any info is greatly appreciated!

~~~~ And for the poor Alenquer.. he is consistently dark, extremely skittish and stays in the corner... besides trying my earnest not to be around the tank, no lighting and keeping a box in front of the corner so he can feel safe, he is not yet any better. I wonder if I just need to be more patient and expect it just will take him/them some X# of days to adjust.

too..there is more to this experience that I have not shared that just turned into more than unreasonable bad luck. Suffice it to say..that I had already been touched with Discus Madness when events out of my control happened that would have made a lot of people just throw the hobby at the wall! And happily kiss many hundreds of dollars goodbye..Truly!

++++Many..Many Thank You's!! Regina

[Willie]

pH is one of those things that really skews a lot of perceptions. The pH of my tap water is 8.8 - 8.9. Conditioning for 24 hours brings it down to 7.5 - 7.6. It's lower, but still very high according to discus literature. Yet, my fish thrive because I make very large water changes very often. In the summer (the outdoor temperature currently is 12F), I do not condition water so the change water is sitting at pH 8.8 - 8.9. Again, the discus thrives because 1) the water is clean and 2) water parameters do not change. I raise fry and adults in this water and the adults will spawn successfully under these conditions.

I expect that your fish will have similar, if not more, success along as water hygiene is maintained, particularly because Stendkers are spawned and raised in high pH and KH in Germany.

[sunsetopal]

Ahh.. that's good news as well as very interesting! You are very impressive with your scope of knowledge on Discus!
I wished conditioning would help but for what ever reasoning it doesn't. I have left the water to sit for 72 hours with no change in Ph. I did this on different occasions to see the pattern. Drove me to believe I needed to invest in an RO system. But with your information I will make it easier on my self and do half or quarter Tap instead of 2 eighths.
Thank you !!

[dspeers]

Regina, I am a little confused. You have your 7 juveniles in a "small" quarantine tank but it sounds like your 55 is just being filled for the first time. If so what are you quarantining them from? Just how small is small?

If I am correct and your 55 is absent fish, I would want to move your discus asap not in 30 days. What is going on in your QT? Foam filters if seasoned can easily be moved to the 55 and your seasoning is done, don't rinse them, don't squeeze them, just move them. To be safe I would monitor to ensure no NH3 spike but would also be stunned if such occured. What pH were these fish raised in? Call California.

You are using a RO system to bring the pH down to 6.8 but you will also drive your kH down and risk a pH crash due to lack of buffering. Why not just mix your RO with tap to your QTs 7.4, transfer your Discus immediately and then slowly allow your pH to rise with water changes using tap. As part of the transfer I would still float the fish and acclimatize, and would also add all of the QT tank water to the 55. Then over time would with water changes slowly bring the pH up to tap and stay out of the RO game. My concern is more how variable the pH is going to be with your water company. If that proves a problem you may have to get a storage tank so you can deal with that. Also a storage tank to season and heat water is a good thing (but not absolutely necessary) for other reasons in any case.

[Iminit]

Yes how small is small? 7 3” discus would do fine growing out in a 55. If as said they are Stendker discus they can handle the high ph and once bigger less water changes. Best to keep your fish as close to your ph as you can. It makes water changing easier.

[matt parsons]

As stated above, just leave your PH alone. Let it settle wherever it wants to. Chasing a specific value will surely kill your fish unless you can recreate a specific PH on command. A lower, unstable and ever shifting PH will kill your fish for sure. A high stable PH is better by far. Discus are much tougher than people give them credit for. Clean, warm, stable water and some good food is what they need. Mess with any one or all and your sure to have sick or dead fish. Get your new guys in the 55 and let them settle in.
My PH is 8.2 ish right out of the faucet and all I do is add Safe to it straight out of the tap and into the tank. I can do a 100 percent water change several times a day if I choose to. I recommend 50 - 75 percent daily water changes and you should have little to no issues. Also Use a good water treatment like Prime or Safe to detoxify the tap water.
Respectfully, Matt

[sunsetopal]

Thanks to all for your great suggestions.
Sorry I was confusing. I was so stressed.

Everything is going well now except I am very tired of being a slave to the RO water system!

The PH coming out of the faucet is generally at around 8.6 - 8.8 with very hard water: KH of 210ppm and GH of 115 ppm. But sometimes PH drops to 6.7-8.2.

I have taken Don's advice and have storage tanks to fill with the tap water and am just not going to mess with RO water anymore. Its not long term feasible.

I will just check the Ph when I fill them.

I am trying to slowly increase the PH in their tanks and am at about 7.6 right now and they are doing fine.

Thanks again for the excellent help!

Regina

[peewee1]

Here is an example of simple. I had raised and bred discus 20 or more years ago and had only a small book published by Dr Axelrod to guide me. I then used city tap water with few water changes and peat moss in the filters in order to lower ph to achieve a brownish color. I stopped keeping fish for the next 20 years and then began again two and half years ago when a long time discus and angel breeder gave to me a 30 gallon tank with filter. I bought 5 4 inch fish. About three days before the fish were to arrive I filled the tank with tap water and heated it to 80 some odd degrees. The fish arrived and went in to the tank. I joined the forum and that is when I found out about water changes so I did that at the rate of around 100% per week. A little each day. Later I got a test kit. Then around a year ago I read here about TDS so I got a meter. First time ever I found out what the TDS was in the aquarium. Now I have two tanks side by side. One is for breeding. I cut back on the water changes from daily to every other day at about 75% per week. I monitor the TDS only unless the fish appear stressed then I take a measure of ph. The TDS in one tank can range from 200 to 800 on any given day while the breeding 20 gallon tank holds around 200 but sometime s can spike up to 900. None of this seems to bother the fish. My approach is to first enjoy keeping the fish and then to be aware of how they are responding to their living conditions.l have peat in the breeder tank filter where the ph shows around 6.5. From the tap my water is usually 7.5. I can net a fish from one tank and plop it into the other tank without any problems. It is just that simple for me when it comes to keeping and breeding my discus.

[Willie]

...The PH coming out of the faucet is generally at around 8.6 - 8.8 with very hard water: KH of 210ppm and GH of 115 ppm. But sometimes PH drops to 6.7-8.2...

I would recommend that you take some water samples, both straight out of the tap and after conditioning, to your local fish store and ask them to run tests. These numbers do not make sense.

1. Your water parameters do not indicate its very hard. In fact, my water comes out of the tap at pH 8.8.
2. Dropping to 6.7-8.2 does not make sense. After 24 hours of aeration, pH is quite stable and settles within a very narrow range.

Your conclusion about R/O water is one many of us have gone through. So many new discus keepers become obsessed with targeting a specific pH and hardness level, even though there is so many information here that pH and hardness are far less important than water cleanliness. When I probe why they want to do this, i.e. if the fish is experiencing any difficulty, there's never a clear reason. Other than keeping heckels, I see no reason to use R/O.

Now that you can focus on water changes, you got a fighting chance to get great fish.

[peewee1]

Willie, do you believe that the fish will adapt to the water conditions rather than trying to adapt the water to the fish?

[Iminit]

I’m a believer the fish will adapt to the ph. Always better to go with the ph and not change your ph. A changed ph can always go back to where it started. With discus keeping your fish as close to the tap or aged water will equal stronger healthier fish.

[Willie]

I don't think it's a choice of adapting the fish versus adapting the water. It's really a matter of what is actually doable. I've played with acids and bases and found it impossible to consistently change water chemistry. Week in and week out, discus cannot possible thrive if water parameters change. In fact, no fish can thrive if water parameters fluctuate.

I've also played with commercial buffers and learned that many of them do not work. You can get water to the pH they claim, but it won't stay there. The most common buffers are phosphate based. Because bacteria in the tank consume phosphates, the pH reverts back to the original tap water condition within 2 - 3 days. I've never had phosphate buffers hold pH constant for more than 5 days. In effect, this produces a yoyo effect in your tank.

In general, water chemistry is extremely complicated. A pH reading is just one test and tells you very little about water quality by itself. When water is extremely soft, like 0 - 50 ppm total dissolved solids, the pH reading fluctuates constantly because there is no buffering capacity. As TDS approaches 0, the reading on the pH meter bounces around. So there's little difference between pH 6.5 vs pH 8.0 in pure R/O water. If R/O water at pH 5.0 is added to a hard water tank at pH is 8.5, the resulting pH is 8.5. Again, there's no buffering capacity.

To maintain the most consistent water condition, I just aerate tap water for 24 hours. The water parameters I measure: pH, GH, KH and TDS, remain the same throughout the year.

[sunsetopal]

These numbers do not make sense.

Hi Willie~
I agree the numbers don't make sense! And its very frustrating for me. I live on a small Island with several separate water districts. The area I live in has a privately owned water company supplying us.
The old stoner guy who maintains the water quality lets the additives run low quite often. I'm getting ready to make a stink about it. Our Tap water Ph should ideally be somewhere around 7.5. and stay there..always.
I have never seen it anywhere in the 7 range. It is always high 8 or mid to low 6. It usually drops overnight.

Late Tuesday night Tap Ph went from 8.8 to 6.4 KH 100ppm and GH 115ppm.

So far there is a pattern as to when the Ph drops. Usually every 7 days. But I am always checking to be sure so as to fill my barrels when the drop occurs. Kinda stressful way to have to deal.
But better then the RO which is even a worse pain.

[sunsetopal]

Here is an example of simple. I had raised and bred discus 20 or more years ago and had only a small book published by Dr Axelrod to guide me. I then used city tap water with few water changes and peat moss in the filters in order to lower ph to achieve a brownish color. I stopped keeping fish for the next 20 years and then began again two and half years ago when a long time discus and angel breeder gave to me a 30 gallon tank with filter. I bought 5 4 inch fish. About three days before the fish were to arrive I filled the tank with tap water and heated it to 80 some odd degrees. The fish arrived and went in to the tank. I joined the forum and that is when I found out about water changes so I did that at the rate of around 100% per week. A little each day. Later I got a test kit. Then around a year ago I read here about TDS so I got a meter. First time ever I found out what the TDS was in the aquarium. Now I have two tanks side by side. One is for breeding. I cut back on the water changes from daily to every other day at about 75% per week. I monitor the TDS only unless the fish appear stressed then I take a measure of ph. The TDS in one tank can range from 200 to 800 on any given day while the breeding 20 gallon tank holds around 200 but sometime s can spike up to 900. None of this seems to bother the fish. My approach is to first enjoy keeping the fish and then to be aware of how they are responding to their living conditions.l have peat in the breeder tank filter where the ph shows around 6.5. From the tap my water is usually 7.5. I can net a fish from one tank and plop it into the other tank without any problems. It is just that simple for me when it comes to keeping and breeding my discus.

Hi Peewee1~
I'm getting there! That attitude of just work with what you got, try your best and let the fish tell me when there's a real problem. As long as their water is clean and they get fed till their bellies are full and there are areas in the tank for them to forage for food they seem to be quite happy n healthy.

I had put little plastic cups filled with gravel and live plants in their tanks and they all LOVED to forage in them. But I took them out because they were annoying to try to keep from getting too mucky and I would spill the gravel all over when cleaning.

Well they were noticeably not at all happy about me taking the plants out. Changing their home decor as well as their foraging areas really set them back. So I have bought new plants and small containers and will put them back in.

Happy fish.. Happy me!

Hope you got a spawn by now

[peewee1]

A gradual ph change does not seem to bother fish but a drastic one can. You figured out that a stable ph between 6.5 and 8.5 is okay. Maybe small water changes done everyday through out the week would keep the ph swing to a minimum?