Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

[LizStreithorst]

My most beloved pair of Pitch Blacks from Tom's (CoralBandit) line had huge spawns and produces nothing but black fry rather than the 1/2 & 1/2 black or gold that is usually the case. I was surprised when a pair from that mating produced 1/2 black and 1/2 gold. Can anybody tell me how this can be genetically possible? The black gene and the gold gene in rams work in a way I don't understand.

[Ryan]

That’s what I was curious about. If those fry from pitch black pairs would also breed true. I guess that means it doesn’t work like DD black angels.

Oddly the breeder in south Africa working with them seems to have 100% pitch black producing pairs.

[LizStreithorst]

I think it does but I've never worked with black Angels. I just wasn't fond of them.

[Ryan]

Double dark blacks carried two recessive black genes so if I remember correctly, if both parents were double darks, all the fry would be. Albinos and golds work the same way. If two fry from a pair that produced 100% pitch black rams ended up having golds in their spawn, that seems to suggest the genetics aren’t as straightforward as angels. Maybe gold and black genes are carried on different alleles?

[LizStreithorst]

I never learned about alleles in high school biology. I'm gonna do a bit of research.

[LizStreithorst]

I still haven't learned about alleles but if a guy from South Africa did it, I should be able to do it too. He must have started with just one pair. I have tons of fry since the parent pair are very prolific. It'll be a fun breeding project.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Most breeders began with the same 'black' rams (kind of a very dirty blue ram) from Dansiger in Israel (even if they came from there third hand).

Some found by crossing with Golds they could get a very pronounced dark coloring... Although not true breeding, the results were quite good for those that displayed the black coloring. Toms are such an example and look very good.. such that he's called them Pitch Black.

Others, like Marco Du Toit of South Africa and Rafael Estenoz of the United States took the heavy culling route. Intially they had weak small spawns with few survivors. As they perfected the lines, they later re-introduced Wild Columbian Rams into the Blood line for Strength. Several generations later, they have true breeding strong fish, good spawn sizes and good color. Marco and Rafael call their lines Dark Knights and Black Knights respectively.

I'm abbreviating, but that seems to be the two major paths breeders have taken.

What's confusing is all of the folks offering Dark Rams or Black Rams that are not very good looking (appearing like very dirty Blue Rams). I have seen such 'Black Rams' in Arizona and Washington, always small. I know some find them attractive and they are in their way... but naming them such really detracts from the fine work that Tom, Rafael, Marco and others have put into developing really good looking strong strains. I hope folks can come to a basic agreement on naming... but I doubt it... I'm sure it will get as nutty as Discus nomenclature (eg. how many different names can you give to a Red Turq?)...

I would be really interested in knowing how the temprements compare between the Pitch Blacks and Dark Knights. Is that genetically driven?

I only learned enough about genetics to pass exams.... I don't recall much of it all all and understand even less...

[LizStreithorst]

Wow! Thank you for the education, Peter. I think I'll just wait and see if I can find another pair of their offspring that produce all Pitch Black and decide what to do at that point. My pair which are Tom's grand fish I sometimes see one or two that look like the ones I've seen advertised as Black Rams that are just dark with a blue pattern. I net them out and put them in a big community tank. Most of my kids are like the Pitch Blacks that I got from Tom.

My education in genetics is limited mostly to what Mendel noted. I've always gone by what my eye and common sense tells me in everything I've bred from dogs to Dairy Goats, and finally to fish. Knowledge of genetics is helpful, I think, but is not totally necessary.

[coralbandit]

You can't see the double dark gene is how I figure it ?
So a very dark ram may carry the DD or not .
That is what makes picking pairs to continue breeding so difficult .
The pair of PBR you sent me had 50/50 gold dark fry ..
The best I ever got was 75% dark and 25% gold .
I have never even had one solid /true spawn of the darks .

I called my guys Pitch Black because I never used any Dark Knights and the name does not thrill me .
My rams came from Shahar Danziger who is the creator of the black ram [and Dantumn angels ]..

[LGelb]

Do you have any rams available

[LizStreithorst]

Yes, unproven pairs for $65, plus shipping. Send me a PM if interested.

[jeep]

I really like mine. Very healthy and beautiful!!

These are the nicest ram's I've seen and not very common in my area!

[LizStreithorst]

Houston, we have a problem.

Some of the pairs from the parents that produce only black are giving me eggs that turn white. I've had 2 pairs that did this after 3 tries. A customer had a pair from this group that tried 5 times without success before the male up and killed his wife. The fish should be old enough to be fertile but the only fertile ones I've had so far are the ones that produce but gold and black fry.

I am forced into having to prove my pairs before I sell them and I have so very few small small tanks to breed them in and no money to buy more. If I do get a pair that produces only black do I select pairs from them with the goal of producing a line that produces just black fry or will I just be digging myself into a deeper hole?

[coralbandit]

I think this was the general consensus from people who got Marcos 'Dark Knights ' .
The breeding was horrible along with the general health of the fish that did manage to hatch and be raised .Or at least his early spawns in development .
Since I haven't locked them in I can't say what you should do but I try to match up my darkest in hopes of high yield black spawns but I am still stuck at 50/50 .
I don't sell proven pairs and most of are not even natural paired . I pick the pairs in 9 out 10 cases selling my rams . It could take almost a year to prove a pair and that might really be half of the fishes life in some cases ..

[LizStreithorst]

I wish I'd known this before I devoted so much time, food and tank space on all these spawns from the pair in question.

I never used to sell proven pairs before now, Tom. But now it's either that or flush them all which I imagine is what I'll do with them.