Help Identifying things found under the microscope

[klthering]

I'm new to discus as of last October and have been struggling with keeping them healthy. I've made many mistakes over my first months as a discus keeper but I'm trying to learn and give them the best care I can. After several dealing with several discus that are hiding, not eating, and have white poop I finally bought a microscope to see what I am dealing with. The problem is, I am unsure how to identify what is harmful and what is harmless. Google is not terribly helpful, either.

I just finished treating with Levamisole and I'm hoping to start seeing some improvements.

Today's specimen has little egg like things in it that resemble figure 8's. Can anybody tell me what they are?
https://katietheringphotography.smug...m4/i-T2PsJZm/A
https://katietheringphotography.smug.../i-mTxJJmG/buy


If anybody is interested, here is the full gallery of videos I've taken over the past few weeks:
https://katietheringphotography.smug...deos/n-xw4Wm4/

Any help would be appreciated!

[LizStreithorst]

I see round worms in the first video. They're cigar shaped and you can see their little nasty mouths under greater magnification.

[klthering]

I see round worms in the first video. They're cigar shaped and you can see their little nasty mouths under greater magnification.

Thank you, Liz! Are you talking about the dark oblong/oval shaped things in this video? Are they the actual worms or the eggs? I just finished three Levamisole treatments. What would you recommend trying next?
https://katietheringphotography.smug...m4/i-T2PsJZm/A

[LizStreithorst]

Dang! That's what they looked like to me but I could be wrong. Google around for round worms of Discus and see if the pics don't match what you see. Could you see their insides moving around under stronger magnification? Can you see their nasty little mouth parts on one end? Levamisole always does the job so I must be wrong.

[klthering]

I don't really see their insides moving, so maybe they are dead and being pooped out? Last treatment was Saturday 4pm.

I was told these were dead roundworms but they look nothing like the things in today's poop sample. I am so confused!
https://katietheringphotography.smug.../i-ss75kbS/buy

[LizStreithorst]

I bet their dead. Wait a week before you look in the scope again. Don't worry about it until then. Post a pic of the fish in the tank if you don't mind.

[Tkuilderd]

Liz is quite close. Those are capillaria eggs. You will want to treat with Levamisole in a dark tank for 24 hours then to a 100% water change. Doing a good gravel vac and thorough cleaning of the tank. Repeat this 13 days after 1st treatment to catch any new hatchlings.

Tammy

[Tkuilderd]

This is a video of a capillaria worm after a levamisole treatment.

https://youtu.be/kjspxPLVKb4

[Willie]

What magnification is this, 1,000X or 400X?

[klthering]

What magnification is this, 1,000X or 400X?

Sorry, Willie. I'm not 100% sure but I think 1000X

[klthering]

Hi Tammy - this is Katie the person you were helping on facebook messenger a few weeks ago. I did the 3 Levamisole doses you advised me to on March 8, March 13, and March 21. All but a few of the fish seem better and are starting to eat. We are doing daily water changes using aged water and sand vacuuming. In my display tank my albino is still hiding, not eating, and has a long white poo coming out of her almost all day. I took a look under the microscope last night and found what looks like thousands of eggs but I am still not clear if they are all capillaria eggs or something else?
https://katietheringphotography.smug...m4/i-KHH2PhG/A
https://katietheringphotography.smug...m4/i-LpfRrW9/A

Here is the albino fish with the white poo:
https://katietheringphotography.smug...m4/i-dkdDX5L/A
https://katietheringphotography.smug...m4/i-fTvTXnR/A

[Willie]

Sorry, Willie. I'm not 100% sure but I think 1000X

The reason I'm asking is that I don't think you're looking at anything. If this is a 1,000X magnification (which means you're using the longest tube on the swivel), then everything you're seeing is what scientists would call an artifact. None of the microimages posted look like anything biological to me. At 1,000X, bacteria would be visible as very tiny dots. Worm eggs, in contrast, would be 200X - 400X larger, really too big to even focus on at 1,000X.

I used to teach microbiology in college and the first lab class was how to properly use a microscope. There were ~15 adjustments necessary to optimize the equipment. My students had to submit a drawing of what they saw on a prepared slide and 70% - 80% of them will draw elaborate water bubbles for me. So even in a small class (~15 students) with a hands on instructor, using a microscope is not easy. In your case, I would suggest trying one of the other two lenses.

I'm always surprised with Internet comments on using a microscope to study discus pathogens. I use a relatively low power binocular scope (200X) to look for eggs, worms, etc. Microscopes are too powerful, and frankly too difficult to use, for such studies. Also, it takes a lot of practice to look through one eye vs two. Capillaria eggs would be readily apparent under low power. If you put a smear on a slide, the image should move when you move the slide. If it doesn't, you're not looking at the specimen.

I stay away from diagnosing other people's fish as a rule, but long white poo always mean intestinal worms in discus. If I saw long white poo, I treat the fish with metro. I find that if you follow the metro directions precisely, the drug always works. Since it always works, I've never had to try other dewormers.

Good luck, Willie

[smsimcik]

Hey Willie, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things you said. I agree with you 100% that those are not Capillaria eggs. As you said, they wouldn't be visible at high magnification. Capillaria eggs can easily be seen at 50-100x. Besides, they are the wrong shape. Capillaria eggs are football- shaped with little knobs (operculum) on each end.


I will disagree a little with your statement that long white poo always means intestinal worms. I would change it to say it always means intestinal irritation. It can be irritation from worms, protozoans, bacterial infection or starvation.
Btw, metronidazole is not a dewormer. It is an antiprotozoal antibiotic. It is used when you think the long white poo you see is from Hexamita ( protozoan). Since Hexamita is so common, treating with metronidazole seems to be a standard practice.

If Capillaria were diagnosed, levamisole, which is a dewormer, would be the treatment of choice.

[Willie]

...I will disagree a little with your statement that long white poo always means intestinal worms. I would change it to say it always means intestinal irritation. It can be irritation from worms, protozoans, bacterial infection or starvation. Btw, metronidazole is not a dewormer. It is an antiprotozoal antibiotic. It is used when you think the long white poo you see is from Hexamita ( protozoan). Since Hexamita is so common, treating with metronidazole seems to be a standard practice...

Thanks, Steve, I stand corrected. I should also correct one additional mistake, i.e. bacteria are visible in a light microscope only when stained.

[klthering]

Thanks for your input, Steve. We moved this fish to a hospital tank last night just to be safe, since the other 6 in the tank seem to be coming around after dewormer and are starting to resume eating. Since she has already had three levamisole treatments, I believe the white poo could be bacterial infection or starvation - she hasn't eaten that I've seen in over a month. We will observe her in the hospital tank over the next few days. For now, we are not treating her with anything, just trying to get her to eat again. The temp is 84, I thought about raising it a little to see if it would stimulate her to eat, but if she has a bacterial infection that would be counter productive, right?