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Thread: Getting the water balance right....

  1. #1
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    CJ Cherryh

    Default Getting the water balance right....

    New here. Out of the saltwater hobby, which I still maintain. Years of freshwater, but back in the days of corner filters.

    3 newish discus in a 52 gallon bow, 48" running room on long side; 2 Sicce Shark filters; Seachem ammonia and ph badges; 5-year-old fresh tank with an aquasoil substrate, slate, and some indifferent plants that first thrived, then failed 3 years ago when the co2 filter went wonky. Inhabitants include tetras, neons, danios, corys, and some odd glowfish that could be zebras or guppies: they're small and thin and move fast. Tank has bubbler inside fake rock for extra oxygen. I use ro/di piped up from the basement via an air vent. It's the system I have for the marine tank. I add Discus Trace. Food started out as bloodworms: thanks to advice here, now feeding suitable pellet, some tubifex, then bloodworm every few days as a treat.

    Discus came out of the bag hungry and active. Smallest one is a nippy, attitudinal sort. Bullies the largest and has paired up with the middle one. They're all 4" or younger. Been here about a month.

    Discus bullying has been constant, big guy mostly confined to one safe corner, but big one still manages to feed.

    Algae problem started and absent the co2 unit working, decided to go to Seachem Excel. First dose of carbon product, the algae began to disappear. On full Seachem regimen for carbon supplement, plant support.

    Curiously enough, coincident with the use of Excel, (other products have not arrived) the bullying settled down and all three fish have been hanging together...maybe some skin irritation? All feeding more or less together now without more than casual 'herding' and no pursuit.

    Anyway, things are looking up. Spouse's discus, me, the set-up, maintenance and feeding---being the general fish person. They're interesting fish---I'm getting to like them a lot.

  2. #2
    Registered Member pastry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    CJ, any pics?
    -Elliot

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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    IMG_0158.jpg IMG_0133.jpg Having trouble with the light level of my camera, rather than the tank. IMG_0155.jpg The third fish is dark blue. And is in the third picture.
    Last edited by CJC; 11-29-2021 at 01:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Spouse passionately, vehemently wants the dark bottom. The fish are speckling and have dark tails because of it. I'm trying to learn whether that speckling will impair their color development as they mature, or whether it's just a natural response that has no great consequence to the fish.

    At this point I'm committed to growing a pervasive ground cover that will green everything and blot out the black, with, perhaps, no speckling.

    The plastic tree serves as a bully-barrier, or did: now that they're settling, they seem to like to hang out in its branches...I figure to remove it as natural plants grow upward.

    Haven't had any problem with other tankmates snatching food---they don't seem to like the same thing except when tubifex is at issue, and then the little guys just clean up after the discus shake the tubifex about, so everybody seems to get what they need.
    Last edited by CJC; 11-29-2021 at 01:28 AM.

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    Homesteader RogueDiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Hi CJ and welcome.
    You'll probably hear more from others.
    The aggression is normal pecking order stuff. The usual recommendation is to have a larger group so that spreads out, but I don't think I'd suggest that though with all you have going on in your tank.
    IF you have a stable pH and water cleanliness environment, your discus might do OK, but it's usually suggested that it's hard to keep planted tanks clean enough to keep discus healthy in the long run.
    What is your water change regimen? This is usually considered essential.
    My opinion is the peppering will persist, but wont in itself hurt the fish other than it being an indication they might be stressed. The dark substrate can cause it, but so could the aggression or poor water quality.
    Good luck.

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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Curiously, once I started carbon dosing, the aggression died down markedly---to the point they are feeding and sleeping together the last two days. Down to typical angelfish level of nippiness. (Things are happening fairly close together because they are new.) Appetites seem bottomless. We've done a 20% water change a couple of days ago. Ammonia reads 0, nitrate about 5, ph about 6.5. I haven't run the futzier nitrate test yet, just the strips, and should. It's been a very full couple of days other than tank. Nitrate never has shown higher. Which argues a test not picking up what it should, or it actually is low. I have a Salifert test, and they say it will work for freshwater: that is one I would trust. The tank itself is well-cycled, stable and pest free for about 5 years, though we have altered tank chemistry into the lower side of the ph scale. This was gradual and species present (notably tetras and corys) seemed to take it in stride. I keep a Seachem ammonia and ph badge on the tank as a visual check on what's going on and thus far no changes. Don't have a co2 checker yet. That's coming. Filtration is a succession of fine-mesh water polishing pads in 2 filters. I appreciate the expertise gathered here and am re-learning freshwater chemistry at this level of ph step by step, trying to understand it as I go. Koi are much more forgiving. Thank you very much for your help. Love the icon.
    Last edited by CJC; 11-29-2021 at 10:19 PM.

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    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Hi and welcome. I'd give up on the CO2 thought for discus for the most part. Not simple enough and too much to monitor, but can be done. Just too much of PH swing from day to night and is not stable for one thing. The plants you have that I see don't need it. I have nice planted tanks and never use CO2. I just stay away from the red plants and substrate covers. The lower nitrates would be the plants taking most of it up. So even though they are low you would still need to change lots of water frequently. Best to have an aging barrel so larger volumes can be changed without putting stress on you fish. In your case low nitrate don't tell you much about what else is building up or getting concentrated in your water. Hardscapes look nicer with discus and looks more natural for them. They don't come from planted places more like branches, logs and leaves. What is your PH and hardness? You might not need the RO water. When you say we've done a 20% WC a couple of days ago, that is not enough IMO. Also with substrate and especially with plants, don't skip out on cleaning the substrate every time a WC is preformed. Three discus in a tank is a tough number to have, especially if one of them decides become aggressively territorial. Just my thoughts and enjoy your discus.

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    Silver Member Iminit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    As said I’d d away with the co2. Next no carpeting plants. To much waste and debris build up around and in them.

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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Good point on the ground cover. They do love shopping for fallen food. Most plants I have are swords, which should offer cover high up (deep tank) while leaving the ground clear for browsing.

    I'm also applying water tests and getting some results that make me wonder. The one that most baffles me is the NO3 reading of 160 (test strips) and the ammonia of 0, both free and bound (SeaChem specific test, both 15 and 30 minute version.) I just do not trust these test strips, unless both are correct and the 'sandbed' (long established tank) is doing what a sandbed does in a marine tank, and its bacteria are processing that efficiently. Marine tanks are what I know, where sandbeds are major and there are virtually no green plants and zero filters of any sort. Freshwater is what I did as a kid long ago in a different universe with corner filters. I've not seen any discussion of sandbeds in freshwater, except as regards planted vs non-planted. There's only transient (changed often) filter medium, so it's not much of a bacterial source. The water is certainly a factor, but doesn't seem enough. Just standing by with Prime in case of ANY ammonia appearance and continuing to do water changes, but I wish I had a better grasp of the system.
    Last edited by CJC; 12-02-2021 at 07:05 PM.

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    Silver Member Iminit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    I’m going to say stop using your salt tests. Get an api master kit. 160 nitrate is high. To get that high you’d need a lot of hidden waste or not be doing water changes. 20% really isn’t enough I’d do 2 50% weekly. Next it could be the aquasoil. Also not recomended for discus. How old is it? Read sandbed but first you said aquasoil? How deep?

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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Quote Originally Posted by Iminit View Post
    I’m going to say stop using your salt tests. Get an api master kit. 160 nitrate is high. To get that high you’d need a lot of hidden waste or not be doing water changes. 20% really isn’t enough I’d do 2 50% weekly. Next it could be the aquasoil. Also not recomended for discus. How old is it? Read sandbed but first you said aquasoil? How deep?

    These are freshwater tests. The aquasoil is about 5 years old. 3+ inches deep. 'Sandbed' is a saltwater term for a living substrate, usually aragonite sand, coupled with live rock, ie, porous substrate and rock filled with bacteria that substitute for a filter---which a salt tank does not have: a filter in a saltwater tank can generate nitrate at problem, even lethal levels for the tank, hence the live sandbed and zero filter. I'm trying to figure out the nitrogen cycle in freshwater. One frustrating thing is that Seachem will not provide the names or type of the bacteria in Stability. Fritzyme will, but I have no experience with the brand. It should be possible to maintain a live enough substrate to handle the discus without daily water changes, and I was wondering if anybody was doing that in planted tanks. I'm testing real often, watching for any problems, but next month I have to trust the tank for 2 weeks to a novice who can't do any water changes, so I'm hoping to set up something that will keep the tank stable til I get back. I've got a month to do this.
    Last edited by CJC; 12-03-2021 at 03:07 PM.

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    Registered Member seanyuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Try Microbe-Lift Nite-out II Nitrifying Bacteria and recommended by Hans.


    https://www.123ponds.com/nite16.html
    Grasshopper
    Francis

  13. #13
    Silver Member Iminit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Freshwater is different. We don’t count on the substrate to hold our bacteria for the cycle. For this we use filters. The filter media hold the cycle. Both bacteria that eat ammonia and nitrite will live in the filter in mass. Yes there is still some in the substrate but because of the high flow of water the filters hold the majority. You’ll see here many do not use substrate at all.
    As for going on vacation. I would change water the day before you leave and don’t feed while your gone. Have whoever is staying there just top off the tank with water. Your fish should be fine for 2 weeks.

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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Quote Originally Posted by seanyuki View Post
    Try Microbe-Lift Nite-out II Nitrifying Bacteria and recommended by Hans.


    https://www.123ponds.com/nite16.html
    I do use Microbe Lift products with the koi. It's good stuff.
    Thanks!

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    Default Re: Getting the water balance right....

    Quote Originally Posted by Iminit View Post
    Freshwater is different. We don’t count on the substrate to hold our bacteria for the cycle. For this we use filters. The filter media hold the cycle. Both bacteria that eat ammonia and nitrite will live in the filter in mass. Yes there is still some in the substrate but because of the high flow of water the filters hold the majority. You’ll see here many do not use substrate at all.
    As for going on vacation. I would change water the day before you leave and don’t feed while your gone. Have whoever is staying there just top off the tank with water. Your fish should be fine for 2 weeks.
    Thank you. One of the things I will surely do is parcel the food by the day, enough to get them through the day; and I will have that tank clean before I leave. I learned never to let anybody water the plants with the big can OR pity-feed the fish out of the whole food canister.

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