Hard water, high pH question

[jwcarlson]

I live in Iowa and our tap water is hard. I haven't tested GH and KH with my master kit yet, but the GH is off scale on my test strips (300 ppm) and KH comes in around 150 ppm. TDS meter shows something in the 570 range.

PH on strips and master kit ring in at 8.0-8.2. I read articles and posts here talking about basically if you can drink it, you can keep discus in it. But when listening to Jorg Stendker, for instance, he says that discus can get sick between 8 and 8.5 and above 8.5 "they die". Now, I understand that discus can get sick in any water and that keeping it clean and consistent is the biggest key.
I've also emailed a bit with Gabe Pasada and he says as long as it's below 7.5 it shouldn't be an issue.

I understand that there's plenty of varying opinions, but I'm having such a difficult time knowing what to believe. I don't want to breed them.

I want to buy some smaller discus (2-3" range) and grow them up, I don't have much desire to just plop in adults as I am most interested in seeing things grow/develop vs buying something "turn key".

So my main questions are:
* Would massive hardness and 8.0 (or a little higher) pH bother you with most available discus (not wild)?
* Am I wrong thinking that operating toward the fringes of preferred water makes keeping discus more difficult? For example, if I'm at the higher pH range for them, would there be a smaller sweet spot for overall health or disease resistance?

Stendker video if you care to listen about 4:45 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Kb5mfmeeM

My intent isn't to start a war or anything. I look and look for information and every time it seems to lean one way I stumble upon something that almost flips it on its head. The bottom line is that I'm trying to decide if discus are right for me. I've always wanted to keep them but years ago when I was bigger into the aquarium hobby they were always a dream fish of mine (15-20 yrs ago). I've worked my way back into it a bit now and am seriously considering getting some to grow out.
Just trying to understand fully how feasible that is. I can age water, I could put in RO and/or mix it if needed (or even if that just makes me more likely to succeed). Just wrestling with it all in my head at the moment.


Thanks!

[Aquaman218]

JW:
You are right about the differing opinions. I have seen many articles from people keeping Discus in hard, high PH water. It's hard to know what their real success rate is.
I'm old-school (or just old). I started raising Discus back when Jack Wattley was one of the few in this country successfully breeding Discus. I was lucky that my tap water was always pretty close, since I prefer not to chase water parameters. I especially dislike using chemicals to constantly adjust my water. I was always very successful at raising them, but never really bread any.

When I started back into discus keeping, after an 18 year hiatus, I decided to take the "...if that just makes me more likely to succeed" approach. I installed an RO water system and perform twice weekly water changes. The RO system removes most of the minerals (I don't use the DI filter). For my money, that gives me a good starting point for my water, and good filtration takes care of the rest.

If you can handle the RO system, with water storage and transfer to your tanks, I would recommend taking this approach with your water.

Robert

[LizStreithorst]

I have a good friend who has raised 2 1/2" Discus to adult size with no disease problems. IMO Stendker is incorrect.

[jwcarlson]

Thanks for your reply, Robert!

I have a good friend who has raised 2 1/2" Discus to adult size with no disease problems. IMO Stendker is incorrect.

Incorrect that pH is an issue at all? He seems to be pushing it a lot higher than most others are willing to say. There's some point at which pH plays a role in how toxic ammonia/ammonium is for your fish? I cannot recall the exact chemistry behind it, but basically that as pH goes up, there's more conversion to/from (can't remember which direction we're going here) ammonia to ammonium (or vice versa). If I'm humming along at ~8 pH, am I closer to that becoming an issue?

What was your friends' pH?

[Willie]

You should get some baseline data first. Take two samples of water to your local fish store for a hardness and pH analysis. They do it for free and because they do so many, their measurements are calibrated. One sample is straight out of the tap, the other one is something that has been aerated for 24 hours. The hardness should not change, but the pH could drop dramatically. My tap water comes in at pH 8.8 and drops to pH 7.5 after 24 hours of aeration. The latter value is what the fish will actually experience. Without firm data, everything is pure speculation.

In general, I don't believe discus need to be raised with R/O water. I only use R/O to improve hatch rates when they spawn, which is a long ways away for you right now. Aging water then making large water changes works for all domesticated discus. With the exception of heckels, the wild discus I've kept do fine without R/O.

BTW, if you're within driving distance of the Twin Cities, I'm planning to organize a local discus club here this summer or whenever the pandemic recedes.

[jwcarlson]

This sample has been in the tank for... three or four days with filter running and an air stone. So would suspect it is well aged at this point.
I believe I got the same (roughly) pH straight from the tap a few days back, but I'll have to recheck.

Nearest fish store that tests is an hour drive, but when I'm next in that area I can certainly bring it in and see what his says. These results are based off of test strips and also API master test kit. It would be nice to have a known solution to test, though.

Twin Cities is ~5 hours from here, but a discus club sounds fun I'm a beekeeper (I have about 40 colonies and raise all my own bees and queens for the last eight years) and used to be pretty involved with a local club and did some beekeeping classes a few years back. I think they're pretty good at getting up to speed if you're attentive, but I find the generally wide range of experience and inquisitiveness makes it difficult for me to stay highly involved. In short, I kind of tried to elevate the overall knowledge of the club, but a lot of people are more interested in just tossing bees in a box and seeing if they're alive the following year. While I want to maximize honey production, raise queens, etc. Just different goals.
I could imagine a group of successful discus breeders talking about that process and me just constantly getting hung up on what my pH should be (while also not having ever had discus)...

[LizStreithorst]

Test your water for pH straight from the tap. Put some of the tap water in a bucket with an air stone only. This test will let you know if the pH remains stable or not. If there is a swing of more than .4 pH you need to age your water before doing WC on the Discus tank. IME Discus can single a large swing in pH once in a while. It's the constant swing between ranges that causes problems.

[Willie]

...Twin Cities is ~5 hours from here, but a discus club sounds fun ... I could imagine a group of successful discus breeders talking about that process and me just constantly getting hung up on what my pH should be (while also not having ever had discus)...

If you do make it in, I have calibrated pH meters and hardness meters.

[jwcarlson]

Just checked KH and GH tonight. KH was 16 drops = 286 ppm, GH was 18 drops = 322 ppm.

pH looked like 7.2 to me, have a quart of it getting air stoned, does that need 24 hours or would overnight be plenty for that small amount?

[LizStreithorst]

over bight is fine.

[LizStreithorst]

Overnight is fine.

[jwcarlson]

8.2 pH this morning (matching earlier test of 3 or 4 day old tank water).

[LizStreithorst]

how about compared to what comes right out of the tap?

[jwcarlson]

It's 7.0-7.2 coming out of the tap.
Which means that it has a lot of dissolved CO2 in it?

[LizStreithorst]

A lot is an understatement. You will need to age your water before adding it to the tank.