Now I remember why I gave up discus 20 years ago! First day - problems

[Tikitank]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?





Brought home my first discus in over 20 years. Seven 4 inch youngsters. The FIRST day in their new tank I noted that one wasn’t using his right pectoral fin. Didn’t feed and kept lights off.




2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).




The one not using his pectoral fin showed some whitish grey dusting on the same side as the inactive fin.
This started 3 days after arrival.




3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.





After reading Simply till my eyes dried out, I decided to treat for cross contamination. Hubby has a 300 gal African tank in the same garage so I thought ….. maybe??? Three days seemed kinda fast and we use all different equipment. Anal about that stuff. Since the one fish arrived not wanting to use that pectoral fin, I’m wondering if it was already infected before I got it. Rid-ich as directed and plain salt at 5 T per 10 gallons. Started this January 21

Several others started hanging in corners, behind sponge filters or along the top looking miserable. Clamped fins. The one pigeon blood guy has never looked bad and he’s the best eater. The blues look the worst. One blue ( not the first one that showed sickness) has cloudy eyes now. This is really worrying me.


I change 100 gals a day and replace the salt for those 100 gallons and retreat the Rid-Ich for the entire 150 gallons. Used some Stress Guard too hoping to help with their slime coating.




Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.



150 gallon tank. Seven 4/5 inch fish.
No other fish





5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).




Daily 100 gallon water changes




6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?



Started tank Dec 30. Bare bottom no rocks, driftwood - nothing except 2 sponge filters. Two wet/dry filters underneath.




7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.




Yes, two 55 gallon barrels for 24 hours and there is no ph swing. Aeration and heaters in barrels.




8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?





SAFE - one teaspoon divided between the barrels prior to water change. Barrels are heated I use one teaspoon for the whole tank because my tap water has ammonia in it. We use a larger dose because we are so close to water treatment plant and get hit pretty hard with chemicals.






9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp ___82.7__

- ph ___7.5__

- ammonia reading ___1ppm_

- nitrite reading __5__

- nitrate reading __40__



I’m thinking these numbers may be off since the tank is being treated with the Rid-Ich & salt.
How can I have ammonia, nitrites and that many nitrates when I’m doing 100 gallon water changes each morning????

We do live within 1/2 mile of the water treatment plant so we know that we get hammered with chemicals which is why we use more Safe. We learned this the hard way while raising Africans. Stopped losing them once we went with a higher dose. Not sure if the discus hate this.






What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __X __

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.




All of the fish are new. Bought them all from Wattley at the same time. Went to the place and picked them out myself.






11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.




Started feeding the fish once per day just to see if they were interested. Tried right before a water change. Tried pellets. Only the sick fish ate some. Other not interested. Beef heart from Wattley not interested until yesterday. Four ate some. Al’s FDBWs . Same four ate some.
Hubby will get some live adult brine shrimp tomorrow just to see if they will eat live food. If not, I’ll double my worry.





12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.



Will attempt this.

[Tikitank]

71B59D21-FF8E-4B5E-8950-6D2764C07EE0.jpg71B59D21-FF8E-4B5E-8950-6D2764C07EE0.jpg


The blues look the worst but the verticals striped guy is eating a bit. The spotted blue goes back & forth. Sometimes he will eat. Then he won’t. Frustrating. Been listening to Discus Talk with Tammy & Cary on YouTube. Cross contamination. Trying to absorb all I can.

[Tikitank]

211CEAE6-B764-4D3F-B170-6C89673CD158.jpg


Blue tiger guy looks better from the side. Angle shot looks bad.

[Tikitank]

AFAF8698-E762-4783-B0C0-39FFCF3B8768.jpg


The lighter colored ones don’t look too awful. Clamped fins and not eating are their symptoms. My tank did test as cycled before I put the fish in the tank and I’ve done 100 gal WC a day since then. The ammonia reading has me stumped. Been reading Toms ( Iminint ) experience with cross contamination and it sounds just like mine. Except his water tests were perfect.

[seanyuki]

Kordon Rid Ich Plus ( active ingredients formalin and malachite green) chemicals only treats external, you may need antibiotics ( Nitrofuranzone or kanamycin) to treat internal infections for cross contamination, It could be many different types of bacteria and or protozoa parasites or a combination of both it’s really hard to say exactly what bacteria they are unless they are sent off to a lab and tested.

[Willie]

Sorry to hear about this, Kathy. The top three pictures show clearly sick fish. In general, you should assume that all the fish in the tank have been contaminated. Pigeon blood types lack black bars, and black pigments in general, so they don't always look sick. But healthy fish do not have clamped fins. I would go with the external treatment first and show Gabe these pictures.

[Tikitank]

Sorry to hear about this, Kathy. The top three pictures show clearly sick fish. In general, you should assume that all the fish in the tank have been contaminated. Pigeon blood types lack black bars, and black pigments in general, so they don't always look sick. But healthy fish do not have clamped fins. I would go with the external treatment first and show Gabe these pictures.

Yes, I’m sure they’re all contaminated. So when you say external treatment first, would the Rid Ich & salt be the first external treatment?
Sent the pic to Alex who assisted me at Wattleys and was kind enough to give me his number when I insisted that I would probably kill these fish. He insisted they would be fine but it looks like I’m determined to prove him wrong.

[Iminit]

Well first it takes time for the meds to help. Mine took 14 days. Are they eating? When you bought them they were fine in there tanks? If so what this says is Gabe is not dealing with one breeder and is dealing with many. Being they got sick once you put them together doesn’t say much about Wattley’s. Next the ammonia could be a mini cycle because of the amount of fish added at once. Why there not eating is because they’re new. Some may take a week or more to eat. I’ve got one for well over 2 months and it just started eating. And only cubed fdbw. I have to hold the cube too!

Have you tested the tap water? What type of filter are you using? Are you using carbon?

[Tikitank]

Well first it takes time for the meds to help. Mine took 14 days. Are they eating? When you bought them they were fine in there tanks? If so what this says is Gabe is not dealing with one breeder and is dealing with many. Being they got sick once you put them together doesn’t say much about Wattley’s. Next the ammonia could be a mini cycle because of the amount of fish added at once. Why there not eating is because they’re new. Some may take a week or more to eat. I’ve got one for well over 2 months and it just started eating. And only cubed fdbw. I have to hold the cube too!

Have you tested the tap water? What type of filter are you using? Are you using carbon?

I read all 7 pages of your CC issue and mine sounds the same. It did take a LONG a time for yours to heal but I wanted to touch bases with you guys because my water tests are so shocking.

Some of them are eating. Some are not. They looked fine at Wattleys. I was pretty damn picky. Found out as I was leaving that some of the fish were brought there by a breeder the day before. He was there. Guess Gabe doesn’t do much breeding? Didn’t see any fry at all when I was there.

I am disappointed in the whole experience and did send them pics of my fish for advice but I REALLY a want to know what people here on Simply think. It’s so much like your issue right down to them liking the light on. One side has a light and they seem to be hanging in that area. The cloudy eye has me freaked and I’m trying not to cry as I type this.

My tap water tests as : ph - 7.4 ( Hubby bought me a Hannah ph meter but it needs to sit in solution for a few hours before use) . Ammonia - 2

After 24 hour aging : ph - 7.4. Ammonia - 0.25

I’m stunned with the ammonia spike since I’m doing 100gal WC daily. Isn’t that surprising?


Sounds like your one fish is quite the prima Donna, although I’d hold the cube if that’s what it took! Maybe I’ll try that tomorrow.


Filters - 2 wet/ dry filters under tank and 2 sponge filters inside tank.

Because my tap water is so awful, it goes through a 4 ft carbon filter before entering my aging barrels. So no carbon in my filters but I do have a bag of ammonia sorb in each wet dry. Put them there just in case before the fish came. And STILL I’m showing 1ppm of ammonia

[Tikitank]

Yes, I’m sure they’re all contaminated. So when you say external treatment first, would the Rid Ich & salt be the first external treatment?
Sent the pic to Alex who assisted me at Wattleys and was kind enough to give me his number when I insisted that I would probably kill these fish. He insisted they would be fine but it looks like I’m determined to prove him wrong.

Sent Alex the pics to show Gabe. He just wrote me saying it was Ich on the eye that was developing into a fungal bacteria. Suggests Cupramine. I used to own a small pet store in Pennsylvania and saw Ich way too much. This isn’t ich. Dont see how copper could be the answer.

[Willie]

Yes, I’m sure they’re all contaminated. So when you say external treatment first, would the Rid Ich & salt be the first external treatment?
Sent the pic to Alex who assisted me at Wattleys and was kind enough to give me his number when I insisted that I would probably kill these fish. He insisted they would be fine but it looks like I’m determined to prove him wrong.

I'd go with the Rid Ich and salt, except use a lot of salt. I'm talking 1 tablespoon/gallon. (Discus will do fine in concentrations 3X of level.) PM me if you would like alternative recommendations for discus.

[Iminit]

Ok I’m thinking the ammo sorb may be giving you the ammonia reading. It detoxify’s the ammonia but you’ll still read it and your bacteria won’t eat it. On another site it was the cause of a long problem with high ammonia reading. A lot of mine had the cloudy eyes. The rid ich only lasts about 12hrs and water needs to be changed daily. I was adding cups of salt daily with water changes.
Seems like your tap is staying good for 24hrs. Is there anything in the tank that could be lowering it? Driftwood? Your tap does have some ammonia. But once the filter is established it should be able to remove it. 100g a day may also be a lot for new discus. I’d do 50% daily.

[Tikitank]

Ok I’m thinking the ammo sorb may be giving you the ammonia reading. It detoxify’s the ammonia but you’ll still read it and your bacteria won’t eat it. On another site it was the cause of a long problem with high ammonia reading. A lot of mine had the cloudy eyes. The rid ich only lasts about 12hrs and water needs to be changed daily. I was adding cups of salt daily with water changes.
Seems like your tap is staying good for 24hrs. Is there anything in the tank that could be lowering it? Driftwood? Your tap does have some ammonia. But once the filter is established it should be able to remove it. 100g a day may also be a lot for new discus. I’d do 50% daily.

Ok, so take the ammo sorb out. I’ll do it first thing in the morning. I’m changing water daily and adding Rid Ich for the entire 150 gallon tank. Called Korden for instructions.

I too am adding cups of salt. 3 cups to be exact for the 100 gal I’m replacing each day. I can switch to 50% wc each day if you feel that would be better for them.

What temp did you keep your tank during the CC treatment? If it’s bacterial it makes sense to lower the temp to 82 - but I know discus like it warmer. I’d think warmer temps would stimulate the appetite and immune system??


No driftwood in tank. Nothing but sponge filters and heater probes. I do have a low KH. With all the Rid Ich & salt it’s hard to get an accurate ph reading in the tank.

[bluelagoon]

I would think that chloramine in your tap water is where the reading from ammonia is coming from. Also using Safe or Prime gives a false ammonia reading. Acriflavine can also been used for cross contamination such as fungal, parasites and bacteria and is used by Wattley when introducing new fish to his facility along with salt.

[Iminit]

Thing is she’s already sing the rid-ich and salt. I say stay with what your using first. Give it the2weeks and see how it goes. Nothing worse than stopping one med and jumping into another. Yes many things can mess with the ammonia test. But there’s nothing in the tank but fish and sponges and the African tank doesn’t show any so it’s got to be the chemicals your adding (ammo-sorb,safe and prime). Can we get some up close pics of the fish. This way we can see if there’s ammonia damage. Yes 82 is the right temp. Bacteria grow faster in warmer water.

Once again this is a Wattley problem!! Seems I read about problems from Wattley more than I see pics of healthy fish. Funny cause Gabe is allways putting out videos of how to keep discus and ways to help sick fish. Really Gabe!! You can’t even sell healthy fish!! I’m noticing Uncle Sams is now also giving care info! It’s almost like a warning sign!! Keep Away!!!

Sorry for the rant!! Patience now and stay the course!!