Mystery sickness/deaths

[Cate45]

Don't you love threads with titles like this one? But of course, it describes exactly what I've got going on, and I need your help, fellow fish-lovers. Ready to throw in the towel after 5+ years of (relatively) trouble-free discus-keeping.

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Approximately 6 weeks ago, one started breathing heavily, hanging nose-up at the top of the tank, not eating, isolating. Removed to QT. 2 weeks later, another displayed the same behaviour. Removed to QT. Despite my best efforts, these two passed away. 3 days ago, another started the same thing, then today yet another. Both these fish are now in QT. And I can see more starting in the main tank. I cannot identify anything different that may have occurred in this timeframe.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Heavy breathing - flaring of the gills. Hanging nose-up (tailstanding) at the top of the tank. Isolating. Not eating. White on tip of tail after a couple of days of this - not excessive, just patchy.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
Firstly, I dose for worms/gill flukes once a month prophylactically. The product I use is similar to the Kusuri wormer, but is NZ-made.

The first fish received a treatment of a product called Wunder Tonic (Active ingredients: 1.5% Methylene Blue, 0.1% Acriflavine, 0.04% Quinine in aqueous solution) as I assumed (a) no gill flukes thanks to my prophylactic treatment of same; and (b) external parasites due to breathing pattern and white on tailfin. Treatment lasted 5 days, slime coat production increased, fish passed away. Temp was at 30 deg celcius

The second fish objected very strongly to me moving him into QT and passed away within hours.

The third and fourth fish are currently in QT, and at the moment I am assuming either something toxic in the water, or external parasites. At the moment I've done nothing except a small amount of salt, raise the temperature (only 1 degree at this point) and add lots of aeration, and 40% daily water changes.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

Tank is 850 litres, 2 metres long, with a 250 litre sump.
Tank has been running for 5 years.
Inhabitants are ~12 sterbai corydoras, and currently around 12 discus. These numbers are dropping, obviously.
No-one is under 2.5 years old, the tank matriarch is around 6 years, and, with one exception, the other fish were all bred here. That one exception has been in the tank for 3+ years.


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

30 percent. Every second day.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Running 5 years. Not bare-bottom, but close to it - play sand, but only a very fine covering.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

Not really. I used to, but it is rainwater, low to no kh, and so I fill the water change barrel, adding a mix similar to Seachem's Equilibrium to raise the GH, add Prime, and then do the water change.


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

Seachem Prime. Added to aging barrel. One capful per 200 litres. This is the standard dose, and I dose for 240 litres, which is the capacity of my barrel.


9. Parameters and water source

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 30 degrees celcius

- ph 6.7

- ammonia reading 0.25 - this is using the API test kit, which does not differentiate between ammonium and ammonia. Using the Aqua One test kit, which DOES differentiate, I have no ammonia reading.

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 20 or under

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- Rain water. This comes off our roof (longrun iron), into our house water tank, and is pumped to the house through a UV filter. We live in the middle of an organic farming area, and there are no sprays or topdress


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

No


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Homemade high protein mix (not beefheart) that I have used for years. Ingredients: Fish (terakihi - ocean fish, not fatty; tinned tuna in spring water; sometimes mussels or shrimp), spirulina, cooked spinach, mushy peas, eggs, banana. Also use Omega One cichlid pellets.

Further info:
We don't use aerosol sprays. The tank has a lid, as does the sump. The media in the sump is a mixture of filter floss, filter sponge, scoria (lava rock), K1, and bioballs in a trickle compartment. Turnover is around 8 times per hour. There are filter socks on the return to the sump. These are changed every water change, washed in a mixture of vinegar and bleach, and then dried on the line for 24 hours.

[CliffsDiscus]

Any pictures?

[Cate45]

Sorry, yes. Best I could get - their eyes look like that because of the flash, and the water isn't actually green - again, flash in combination with the green towel that's underneath the tub.20220412_105726.jpg

[jeep]

Firstly, I dose for worms/gill flukes once a month prophylactically. The product I use is similar to the Kusuri wormer, but is NZ-made.

Unless you regularly expose them to worms, there's no need to use this, or any other product, once per month. The concept of monthly worming is to develop repeat business and if taken care of during the initial QT process there should be no reinfestation. Wormers are very harsh on internal organs. I would discontinue this.

- Rain water. This comes off our roof (longrun iron), into our house water tank, and is pumped to the house through a UV filter. We live in the middle of an organic farming area, and there are no sprays or topdress

I've seen people do this before. It seems like a great concept but it's impossible to control possible atmospheric toxins that may randomly accumulate. Can you pump your water through a pre-filter and carbon block? This would eliminate most toxins. No need to age because your water isn't from a municipal source. I don't think there's even a need to use Prime unless you're trying to detoxify any heavy metals.

These are a couple of possibilities based on the information you provided. I tend to agree that it may be water related, although I would still discontinue the wormer.

[Cate45]

Thanks for your response. Yes, I can put the water through carbon first, as you suggest, and I will do that. I don't actually have a choice about water source - it's rain water or nothing. So I need to manage that as best I can. The Prime is for any potential heavy metals, obviously chlorine and chloramine not a factor.

Your point about the wormer is noted - I had tossed up for some time about whether or not to take this route, and obviously came down on the side of 'do it'. It was more for gill flukes than worms, but point taken.

I've got two more heading the same way - and I don't really know what else to do. Or, more correctly - because I'll pump new water through carbon first and stop my monthly wormer/gill fluke dosing - I am unclear about whether I can save the affected fish. I have been advised by a local fellow discus keeper (of 30+ years) to do what I'm already doing in QT, plus to add metro to guard against secondary infection. The QT chaps have not got any worse in the last 3 days, but they're not improving either - I'm having nightmares about this. I knew I'd had too good a run!

[jeep]

Heavy breathing - flaring of the gills. Hanging nose-up (tailstanding) at the top of the tank. Isolating. Not eating. White on tip of tail after a couple of days of this - not excessive, just patchy.

Sorry, I missed this the first time around. Tail standing can be a direct side effect of using flubendazole, which is the main ingredient in Kusuri. Does the product you've been using contain it?

If this is the cause it may or may not be curable. A couple of years ago we helped someone with the same issue after using frequent doses Kusuri and by alternating doses of sodium chloride and water changes. He lost some of his discus but some were saved.

We added 5TBS salt per 10g for 24 hours then did a 50% daily water change until TDS returned to normal (all salt removed), then repeat several times over about 2 weeks. The theory is that the osmotic changes created by the salt helps purge the internal organs of residual medication. You can give this a try if you want to. At this point you have nothing to lose. That may sound like a lot of salt but discus can handle quite a bit more for short periods of time.

Have a look at this thread. It may not contain a course of action but it does possibly relate to your issue http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...le-side-effect

[jeep]

Another expellant that may be available to you is Microbe Lift Artemis.

[Cate45]

The thread jeep directed me to regarding tail-standing and use of flubenzadol-based meds was particularly interesting - for anyone else reading it, it's important to note that although the OP on that thread wanted to discuss FLUbenzadol, the discussion oscillates between that and FENbenzadole. There's also the usual confusion (later in the thread) about whether posters have used sodium chloride or magnesium sulphate. I believe it should be sodium chloride.

However. I am wondering if this medication is in fact my issue. Not in my response to the original disease questionnaire, but relevant, is that my TDS sits at around 120 (after I remineralise my rainwater in the aging barrel). My FLUbenzadole-containing med (5%) is mixed with a jar of tank water and added to the sump, from where it eventually dissipates throughout the tank. Only one dose is given - not multi-day. One of the posters on the thread referenced by jeep was in Scotland, and specifically mentioned that they had very soft water with a low TDS. A shame they hadn't posted more, as that sounds like it might quite closely match my water parameters.

Going forward, I will continue my QT regimen for the inhabitants therein for the next few weeks at least, and increase the NaCl dosage I am using. I will stop using the flubenzadol-based med as a prophylactic for gill-fluke treatment. I cannot easily dose my main tank with NaCl, as I have corydoras in there, and I'd rather not send them to early cory heaven - anyone ever tried catching corys? Even with a bottle with an inverted top it's a slow process! So I suspect my QT may become more crowded in the next few days - I hope not, but we shall see.

Thank you for your very useful insights into this. As I'm sure we all know, you can get so mired in a problem that you can't see the wood for the trees, and clearer heads really do help. I will post follow-up in about a month, hopefully with positive news.

[jeep]

My preferred prophylactic treatment during QT is levamisole. It takes care of just about everything flubendazole does without the possible side effects. I don't think it takes care of flukes but I use Prazi for that.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...tine-Procedure

[Cate45]

So here's my follow-up, for anyone who may have a similar issue. I lost about half my stock - all bred and raised here, all over 2.5 years old. The rest of the stock seem to have weathered this storm (fingers crossed - no deaths for about 6 weeks).

And of course there's the 'oh, then I noticed' part of this thread, which I'm sure contributed to the issue - one of my air pumps feeding oxygen into my tumbling K1 had failed. So the oxygen level of the water would have been reduced. Not eliminated, there's a 1.5 metre long spray bar returning water to the tank above the water level, and there's a trickle compartment in the sump - but certainly reduced.

Overall, I suspect hypoxia in conjunction with cumulative damage from regular (and, I now understand, unnecessary) use of flubenzadole. I had no recoveries, even with early QT, NaCl treatment, and 50% min daily WC on QT.

I guess this was my major crisis/learning curve. It was several years coming, and I hope I never have anything like it again, but it sure does illustrate that there's ALWAYS something to learn. My thanks to jeep, for the useful and concise advice.

Best to all.

[jeep]

Well, I'm sorry to hear the bad news but it's great that some survived. Best of luck in the future and don't hesitate to ask more questions or share some photos...