Second dose of metro needed?

[Prickly Pete]

I had a discus that seemed to be suffering from hexamita--was darker in color, very thin and undersized compared to my other discus.

I completed a ten day dose of metro, but that one discus didn't survive. I believe I waited too long to start the treatment.

Now, about 5 days after I completed that ten day dose, another discus has whitish colored poop. It also is looking a bit darker than it was before and perhaps a bit thinner as well.

Do I need to do a second dose of metro?

Thanks for your help!

--David

[jeep]

Let's first see if hex is the issue. Can you copy, complete and paste this questionnaire back here? Also need metro dose, temp and water maintenance routine...

Hex can take months to kill a discus. The answers can be a huge help!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...lease-complete

[Prickly Pete]

I will get my water parameters added later this evening; have been bit busy with work and personal schedule.

I completed as much of the rest of the form as I could and have included pictures of the fish in question and its poop.

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Fish seems to be darker than normal, thinner than normal.

Whitish/puffy poop.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

A ten (10) day treatment of metro. 2.5 milligrams each day, once a day.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

55 gallon long tank. Did have 5 discus, but one has since passed. It had same conditions as this one listed above. I did have around 25 neons but all of them died during the metro treatment. I believe the high heat and not enough oxygen in the water was to blame.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

15 true gallons, once every 4-5 days.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tank has been set up for about a year and a half. Gravel, vacuumed out as I do water changes.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

Up until about 1 week ago, I was using RO/DI exclusively. Now, am aging tap water in a tank with air stones and heater.

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

None.

9. Parameters and water source;
Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp _____

- ph _____

- ammonia reading ____

- nitrite reading ____

- nitrate reading ____

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Flake food, freeze dried tubiflex worms, freeze dried brine shrimp, fresh/frozen blood worms. Fresh blood worms once a day. Other foods, usually 2 times of each during the day.

12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
IMG_4631.jpgIMG_4632.jpgIMG_4633.jpg

[jeep]

A ten (10) day treatment of metro. 2.5 milligrams each day, once a day.

Metro should be dosed 250mg up to 500mg per 10-20g for 10 days. Metro works best with high heat and the tank temp should be raised to 92-93 during treatment.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often). 15 true gallons, once every 4-5 days.

I would increase to 50% per day, at least during treatment and then no less that 50% per water change after.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing. Up until about 1 week ago, I was using RO/DI exclusively. Now, am aging tap water in a tank with air stones and heater.

Good move! Straight RODI is not a healthy environment for fish as the need trace minerals for optimal growth. RODI could possibly have aided in its decline.

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use? None.

Curious... Does your water not contain chlorine or chloramines?

To be honest, this discus is severely stunted and it'll be challenging to turn it around. You can treat it and hope for a recovery but it'll never reach its full potential. A few weeks after it's looking better you may consider treating with levamisole for internal parasites.

The overall environment isn't ideal either. If you really want substrate, you should use sand as waste and parasites live in the gravel no matter how much you clean it.

[Prickly Pete]

Sorry, in the 10 day treatment, I did 1 gram PER 20 gallons of water, per day following the guidelines of Wattley Discus, where I ordered the metro. Got my math all confused as I was writing the response.

And yes, I had the temp around 92 degrees during the entirety of the treatment. Forgot to include that. I added an air stone after a few days as I think that was hurting my neons, the lack of oxygen.

I do agree the flat/football shape is not the round/ideal one. It (and the other discus that passed) were not nearly as round even when I got them. I do agree it has become stunted.

I kept discus years ago in this same setup and didn't have any problems, which is why I am perplexed. I know plenty use bare bottom or sand.

I live in Dallas Texas and so yes I know there is chlorine/chloramines, but the local breeder uses only tap water, aged for 3-4 days (barrel with air stone) so that is approach I am now taking.

Based upon those pictures, do you think those feces are an indicator of hexamita? And if so, do you think I need to do another treatment?

I know what ever has infected one fish is in the entire tank so obviously I want to eradicate as much as possible. The other three discus look great but I want to do things better moving forward if I am not doing something "correctly" that directly lead to the one death and possible another in the future.

Thanks for your help!

Metro should be dosed 250mg up to 500mg per 10-20g for 10 days. Metro works best with high heat and the tank temp should be raised to 92-93 during treatment.



I would increase to 50% per day, at least during treatment and then no less that 50% per water change after.



Good move! Straight RODI is not a healthy environment for fish as the need trace minerals for optimal growth. RODI could possibly have aided in its decline.



Curious... Does your water not contain chlorine or chloramines?

To be honest, this discus is severely stunted and it'll be challenging to turn it around. You can treat it and hope for a recovery but it'll never reach its full potential. A few weeks after it's looking better you may consider treating with levamisole for internal parasites.

The overall environment isn't ideal either. If you really want substrate, you should use sand as waste and parasites live in the gravel no matter how much you clean it.

[Willie]

Chlorine and chloramine are different. Aging water 3 - 4 days with aeration will remove chlorine, but not chloramine. Unless you're absolutely certain that your tap water does not contain chloramine (fairly unlikely these days), you should treat with Prime, Safe, Chloram-X, etc.

[Prickly Pete]

Thanks for the response--I will start used Prime/other to address chloramine.

Do you have any thoughts/experience as to whether or not I need to do a second treatment of metro or is that unnecessary?

[jeep]

Will is correct! Chloramines don't evaporate like chlorine does. Good thing to start using Prime.

A second treatment shouldn't hurt a thing. Metro is one of a few drugs that are easy on discus. You can also continue the heat for another week. This guy is pretty weak looking so don't expect an immediate turn around. It can take 2 weeks after treatment to see encouraging results.

If it's still eating you can try mixing some metro in the food. You can also try epsom salts in food. I've never tried it but I've heard good stories about it. The thing is, these things change the taste so they may not take right to it.

Did you get these from Wattley?

[RogueDiscus]

Hi David,
I see you've been around here for a while, so hopefully you've looked around at what others do and what works. Without contradicting any of the good advice you have already received, I'm going to suggest that if you want to keep discus, then you should focus on setting up your tank and planning your maintenance routine to give them the best conditions. This particular discus may survive the current situation, but it may not be worth lots of meds and effort. I think you should look to what is best for your future discus. If you've lost one, now close to two, I suspect your others are struggling but not yoet showing it. They are young enough that I wonder where you got them and what condition they were in then.
So, trying to be supportive, but suggesting you look to making the set up changes folks recommend, even if that means giving up on a fish.
Gravel with juvies almost never works out.
I hope others will fill in.
Steve

[Prickly Pete]

Thanks - I will consider doing a second treatment.

Any sense of why all the neons would die as well?

It doesn't seem weak at all and darts around, eats well, etc. like normal almost more so than the rest. It's the alpha.

I did notice this afternoon that the feces were large and normal so perhaps that is a good sign?

I got them from a local breeder in Garland Texas.

[Prickly Pete]

Thanks for your response.

I know some do not use gravel but when I had discus years ago they did great with same setup as I have now so I guess perhaps I was just lucky then?

With this current tank, I got two (one of which passed and the other is pictured above) around April of last year. The latest three I got in July. All from a local breeder in Garland Texas.

[jeep]

Neons may not have been able to deal with the heat.

I did notice this afternoon that the feces were large and normal so perhaps that is a good sign?

A very good sign. Go ahead and repeat the treatment anyway. It wouldn't hurt. Then it may be a good time to examine the feces for other causes like roundworms or caparillia. Both are common in aquariums and can be treated with levamisole.