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Thread: Alternatives to Aging Water?

  1. #16
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Where can I find Ping's fishroom pictures, Brian? I have just an unfinished basement and it's pretty well unused, so I've got space. Just trying to think of the logistics if I were to get more discus.
    That said... I feel like if I'm going to do large water changes on any tank, I should probably age it. Or otherwise settle the pH out, which is why I'm interested in the system I linked above.

    All that said... it's entirely possible that I could more quickly "age" my water. or, in fact, that my water doesn't even need 24 hours and is actually settled in pH after, say, 8 hours. That would take some testing and wouldn't be too terrible. But simply aging water more quickly it doesn't really change my situation. If I could do it "instantly", that would really do the trick.
    And I realize I'm probably overlooking something else that might be required and that most of this discussion is mostly me working through things in my head. Let me describe my ideal setup (and probably everyone else here lol)... I turn on my water change water, it goes through an "on demand heater" bringing the water up to whatever I have the controller set at (say 85 degrees for my discus), it then goes through some sort of rapid aging setup, and squirts out into the tank at stable pH and correct temperature with zero water storage required. Now, if I were going to commit to getting more discus, I would increase my current storage/aging setup as needed. But I'm kind of at the stage of wondering if I can do more discus without becoming a slave to water changes. I'm 38, I'm an engineer, I've got a wife... three kids... two high maintenance dogs... and I'm a beekeeper. And time is always always a premium. I realize this isn't a unique issue. I'm strongly leaning to exiting the beekeeping world, at least at this time in my life.

    I know not all of this is related to the OP here, but trying to shape where I'm coming from. I'm also at a point in my life where it's not that big of a deal for me to spend some money on setting up something like this. Now, I'm not going to spend $2k on a 18" filter that removes CO2... but I wouldn't be bothered by better setting myself up for better efficiency from a time stand point because that allows me to spend more time or create more capacity to spend the time that I do (if that makes sense). In short... when I'm changing 90% in my 75 every night I'm thinking... could I be doing this in parallel in another tank with another set of growout discus?
    And of course I start thinking about an automatic water changing system of some sort. But I don't want to necessarily lose sight of being in-tune with the fish and observing them.

    Thanks for letting me vomit my thoughts out for everyone to see!

  2. #17
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Here's a pic that shows part of his setup. I think he has several of these storage containers lined up in a row. They can be costly new but I'm sure you can find cheaper used ones on Craigslist

    Ping.jpg

    Liz uses those square IBC totes with wire cages. They have a big footprint and hold like 275g each but they can be stacked. Again, CL is a good bet on finding cheap used ones but I would be sure what was in them before using one. When I visited her I saw many of them just setting by the side of the road.

  3. #18
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Awesome, Brian, I certainly don't think the totes or those bigger tanks would fit into the basement, but those are a good use of footprint, for sure. I've seen the totes, one of the LFS here has a stack of them for his water. It wouldn't be difficult for me to put four of these pickle barrels (that are bigger than 55 gallons apparently, because one of them will fill my entire 75 short about an inch or two). So, thinking they're about 60 or 65 gallons by the time I figure in the volume displaced by filters/fish/decoration/etc.

    Four barrels would be 240 gallons of aged water, would also give me ability to heat to different temperatures if needed. I'm leaning towards the fishroom in the basement being natives with low or limited heat requirements... maybe creek-like vibes. But also kind of interested in maybe another discus grow out. Because I think my Stendkers went well, but I know I could do better. And I'm half considering giving away or selling my Stendkers, but not sure how I feel about that. I wouldn't be opposed to breeding some discus, not for any real reason other than being able to say that I did it.

    Thanks for the references, Brian!

  4. #19
    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    This is the first time I heard about the CO2 gas off devices. Are they used for fish water? I'm wondering if this includes removing O2 as well. If so this wouldn't be good for extra large WC's. All that dead water; your fish might be gasping for air at the surface. I agree with Brian on the 25% tap water; I can do the same thing here with my tap water.

  5. #20
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Me and a friend installed a 1500g container for his fishroom. Where the bottom drain plug is, is where we installed a jacuzzi pump to supply a couple hundred tanks. Just after the pump we installed a diverter valve so we could pump the water back into the holding tank for rapid aeraton and aging, so there was no "dead water". This is basically the same concept I use on my 55g barrels now. As long as the water is warm, I can age or off-gas my water in about 2-3 hours. Cold water takes much longer.

    Another idea I've been thining on is to fill the holding tanks with regualr cold tap water, then use a small tankless water heater to heat the water and age it. This would be installed at some point in the system, possibly attached to a smaller pump because small tankless water heaters have a much lower flow capacity than the pump that fills the tank. That way I'm heating water on demand instead of paying the extra money to maintain a constantly heated water supply. All my tanks and holding tanks are insulated with Reflectix so I can keep a 55g holding tank at 80 degrees using only a 100w heater.

    I don't understand the concept of using a device to off-gas co2. Co2 is compressed at the molecular level and only dissipates as it expands and the water temp rises or if it's given enough time, naturally, which can take days. Placing a mesh or filter pad material can help diffuse the co2 and possibly reduce aging time, but it can't trap and remove a dissolved gas. Obviously some peope swear by it but I just don't understand the logic...

  6. #21
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    To be clear, these are for industrial and lab related applications. They make versions for CO2 and O2 removal, but not both, I don't think, but it is absolutely possible it strips both? I'm not just going to strap on of these on and do a 90% water change... I don't know what they cost or what draw backs there might be. The O2 issue is something I'm concerned about and thought about... will ask the guy if/when he gets back to me. I figured *something* like this had to exist and so after making this post I went digging around. Figured it would be something industrial and so I started looking at places I would when doing my normal, engineering job. Anyway, stumbled up on this technology and thought it looked promising. I want to make sure that no one thinks I'm currently using this or endorsing it or something. It might completely kill the fish for all I know. Just to be clear.

    I run an air stone in my barrel and age for 24 hours, I have no clue if it takes 10 minutes, 10 hours, or 24 hours to age out the CO2 and to be frank... it does not matter at all. As long as the "aging" isn't instantaneous, then there really isn't an advantage to me aging water faster (unless I forgot to fill the barrel or something) because I still have to store it. Hopefully that makes sense. If I still have to hold the water and aerate/heat it... even for 30 minutes, then that doesn't really do much good for me. Hopefully that makes sense and that I don't sound snarky or combative, as that's not my intent. My "wish" here would be to pre-heat water and strip the CO2 in real time in order to get the pH stable in real-time. Again, the idea here would be that I could inline heat the water and strip the CO2 and pump it right into the tank. On the flipside, if it took an hour to fill my tank this way compared to the 15 minutes or so that it takes now, that's OK for me. So there's a lot of moving parts in what I am particularly trying to streamline because my needs/desires may be way different than others. If my pH didn't shift 1.3 or more, I'd happily hard pipe a bypass, install an on-demand/inline water heater and call it good. The pH shift is the demon in the system and so that's kind of what I'm going after.

    As far as the technology is concerned, think of it like a sieve that has big enough holes to let through CO2, but not water. Some of the models look like the require or at least benefit from vacuum on the shell side of the exchanger, which would reduce the pressure and "draw" the CO2 out further. This isn't different than anyone using pads or bigger bubblers/air stones/baffles... or towers where the bubbles travel further up through the water. All of that is to increase the surface area, turbidity, or both. There's no sort of chemical filtration happening here with these 3M filters or anything. If you go to the website there's a little animation and plenty of text talking about how it works.

    Brian, I think we're talking past each other a bit. Are you saying you don't understand the value in being able to eliminate the need to age water from a CO2 standpoint (if aging is something that one's water requires them to do)? Or that you don't understand how this particular 3M technology works?

  7. #22
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Brian, I think we're talking past each other a bit. Are you saying you don't understand the value in being able to eliminate the need to age water from a CO2 standpoint (if aging is something that one's water requires them to do)? Or that you don't understand how this particular 3M technology works?
    We may be but I was also being a little more generalized. I was refering to people who claim they can eliminate microbubbles (co2/nitrogen) while filling their tanks simply by using filter floss. When you look at the physics of why co2 exists in pressurized water supplies in the first place, it makes no sense...

    I guess I just had that image stuck in my head, lol...
    Last edited by jeep; 12-29-2022 at 03:59 PM.

  8. #23
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Ahhh, ok, I'm with you now. I thought you were saying basically "why would anyone see value in 'instantly' off gassing". I totally agree that just a little more turbidity or agitation isn't going to fix anything in real-time. Especially not just passing it through filter floss or something.

    So what you said makes complete sense. I agree that anyone who thinks passing their water through filter floss is instantly off-gassing anything is fooling themselves. Unless they're doing it under vacuum or something.

  9. #24
    Registered Member pastry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Jacob, not sure if this helps you as you are putting your plan together (even if already executing), but you can get a very inexpensive rapid-water-heater if you need large amount of water heated quickly (don't use in tank with fish! just water holding/aging containers!). It's "dangerous" if someone's an idiot (I'm pretty dumb myself and actually shocked myself several times recently when I saw the rubber coating on power cable had been rubbed off... I'm still alive though!). I've heated up 100 gallons in a Rubbermaid tote I have outside when the air temp was mid-20's, water temp I think was low 40s when I plugged in heater, and approx 3 hours later it was beyond temp I needed (92). Son of a ***** definitely eats up some electricity and will trip breaker if on a circuit that already has a decent load.

    If interested, let me know and I'll track down the Amazon URL for it. I think it cost me under/at $30. Multiple, similar variants & sizes (no temperature setting... just plug in and check until desired temp).
    -Elliot

  10. #25
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    I wouldn't mind seeing it, though I don't think I would use one. Sounds fun though. Hahaha

    I have not heard back from 3M,I supposed they don't care about my silly use case!

  11. #26
    Registered Member pastry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    I literally borrowed a hard plastic kiddie pool 2 February'sago, put it in my wife's garage, filled it up, plugged heater in 4 hours ahead of time (added huge cardboard piece on top to help heat faster), and then tried to put my old party boy speedo on ... but had to settle for boxer briefs... and jumped in it 10 mins before she pulled in the driveway with our sons. She hit the garage door opener and ... there I was.. in my own redneck hot tub with bud heavy, a cigarette, and looked like a fat lobster because that thing was cooking! As a surprise to me, I didn't realize a neighbor and 3 neighborhood kids had run up the driveway as they pulled in.
    -Elliot

  12. #27
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Quote Originally Posted by pastry View Post
    I literally borrowed a hard plastic kiddie pool 2 February'sago, put it in my wife's garage, filled it up, plugged heater in 4 hours ahead of time (added huge cardboard piece on top to help heat faster), and then tried to put my old party boy speedo on ... but had to settle for boxer briefs... and jumped in it 10 mins before she pulled in the driveway with our sons. She hit the garage door opener and ... there I was.. in my own redneck hot tub with bud heavy, a cigarette, and looked like a fat lobster because that thing was cooking! As a surprise to me, I didn't realize a neighbor and 3 neighborhood kids had run up the driveway as they pulled in.
    Hahaha, it's always nice to invite the neighbors to the show.
    Anyone else join you in the hot tub?

    So what's the heater? You have me interested. I have a sous vide and I have often wondered how quick it could take a big barrel of water from cold to 80-some degrees. It's 1500 watts and it circulates. I suppose that a bigger version of that would make quick work of a barrel, but it would certainly suck up a lot of current. Though probably the same amount of power overall, just a lot quicker. Right now I have it timed so that the water is tank temperature at like 5 PM and then I'm usually changing water around 7. But sometimes as early as 5:30 or 6 depending on what I have going on.

  13. #28
    Registered Member pastry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    This is the URL to one of them (the one I got 2 years ago looks the exact same... stainless steel, yellow caps and power cord).

    Immersion Water Heater, Electric Submersible Water Heater with Stainless Steel Guard Cover, Portable Bucket Heater to Heat 5 Gallons of Water in Minutes (Yellow) https://a.co/d/2CTHdqZ
    -Elliot

  14. #29
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Thanks, Elliot! My barrel takes about 5.5kwh to heat to 85. So about 9 hours with my 600 watts. This one should be able to do it in about 4 hours bring 1500 watts. Might have to pick one up. Not sure if Inhave a heat controller that can handle that current though.

  15. #30
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alternatives to Aging Water?

    Looks interesting. I would definitely use an inline GFCI with a setup like that.

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