Alternatives to Aging Water?

[jwcarlson]

This afternoon I had a discussion with a 3M representative in relation to the Liqui-Cell technology that I linked earlier in this thread.

Unfortunately, it will not work for my water because of the pH. The technology would not work for me because of my high (relative) pH. He said pH ranges of 5-6 would work well.

We chatted a bit, I didn't want to waste his time because he wasn't going to sell me anything. He said CO2 at my pH is bicarbonate and at lower pHs it is actual CO2. There could be some lost in translation here as he is a chemical engineer and I'm just a lowly electrical version. In any event, he said that the technology is used in fish farming to control oxygen concentration without introducing bubbles. For fear of gas bubble disease? Not sure I've heard of that.
Also said that it is used in the reverse to lower oxygen concentration and kill the fish by basically asphyxiating them (with the theory that the flesh is better without more mechanical/stressful means of dispatch).

He seemed kind of bummed, but I said that it's possible someone out there has the right kind of water that it might make sense for...

I'm glad he took the time to call and chat.

[bluelagoon]

Makes sense to me. You live were there's limestone in the area. Lots of calcium, carbonate and I would think sodium chloride (salt) as well.

[jwcarlson]

Makes sense to me. You live were there's limestone in the area. Lots of calcium, carbonate and I would think sodium chloride (salt) as well.

Yes, to the limestone, unknown about the salt side of things. He followed up with an email with some other filtration options that might take care of carbonates "in line" (not things his company sells, but things he researched after talking to me). I haven't really looked at them yet. I think he was interested because of how odd-ball of a request it was.

[dspeers]

This might be an expensive case of playing wack a mole with a sledge hammer. Wouldn't you be at risk of excessive extraction of CO2 with consequent pH shifts from high to low after water change? I think the CO2 offgassing can be accomplished much faster than 8 hours with a quick immersion heater and agitation +/- a showerhead recirculation system to marginally increase the surface area of the water. I would simply check pH every 30 min with such a system and see how quickly it gets to target. If you do try, and still too slow, whould next try and design a way to circulate the air below the reservoir cover as CO2 is heavier than N2 or O2. In theory this makes sense, practically may be a trivial effect, but maybe not. Kids classrooms show a marked increase in CO2 during the school day when occupied.

[jwcarlson]

I certainly think that the aging can be done more quickly than 24 hours. But it doesn't matter to me if it's 24 minutes or 24 hours. If it's not "real-time" then it doesn't really matter to me. If that makes any sense. If I had an automated system it might make sense that something faster might be beneficial.

Regarding excessive CO2 removal, I have no clue if that's possible. It could very well be that is something that's possible. But I'm not a chemistry guru and it's been 15 years since I took chemistry when I was in college, so I know that I'm qualified to answer that question.

[Vanman]

Did he happen to mention how much these filters cost?

[pastry]

Jacob, I haven't read everything since my last post but forgot to tell you there are different wattage choices if you need quicker! Although no setting, you can easily estimate (swag) amount of time needed to heat from ## degrees to ## degrees after the first usage.

[jwcarlson]

He didn't, but I would guess they're pretty expensive.

But there's also a huge range of applications and flow rates. So it's possible there's a small version that's relatively affordable, but the bigger versions are more expensive. I would feel comfortable giving you his contact information through PM if you are interested.

[dspeers]

Wrote this hours ago but got distracted and did not post.

I am 40+ years seperated from my college chemistry. Did not realize you wanted what ammounts to a single switch system. Below is my vision of a solution which I never thought about till now but just might try. Currently I have 4 tanks awaiting my final design and resolution of a difficult social situation. The plan was to change water twice weekly per tank but essentially 6 of 7 days per me due to my limits on space to age water. Considering my disabilities I would also have to set up an apex system or equivalent to move water for every tank.

For what you want:
Step 1 would be inline heater and either integrated valve or step 2 would be a valve to control flow to regulate outflow temp. Step 3 would be a small reservoir where the warm water would be sprayed in via a shower head, the other alternative would be a reservoir with aeration and agressive circulation. One or the other would be more effective in rapidly offgassing the CO2 (wouldn't know till I tried), if 1 did not work could add more in series. That would then drain to a small reservoir with a sump pump controlled by a fill valve. As long as the sump pump flow was higher than what the tap was providing you get semi instant aged water. Open question is whether the aeration and circulation vs a spray head would indeed dissipate the CO2 rapidly enough. My plan is to heat up some water and then run it through a mock up of both of the reservoirs to see what pH changes I get vs aging x 24. Question is do you have room for such a system. I could do it where my 75 gallon reservoir is currently.

[jwcarlson]

I have thought of something similar, but was thinking more of an 6-8 foot tall tower filled with... something, like bio balls maybe. Basically, something that would rough up the water (and could even spray down with a shower head type set-up) as it cascaded down into a barrel or basin where the pump would then pump it to the tank. It would need to be preheated, obviously. The issue I have is the way my water situation currently exists; I can't really get heated water without it going through my water softener. I could completely bypass or turn off the softener for a batch of hot water, but then it's heating/aging in the water heater and would skew results. Perhaps I could learn what I need to from a tap cold trial of such a system? And let's say (in my circumstance) it takes the water from pH 7 to like 7.5 or 7.6. I would feel pretty comfortable that water that's 20 degrees warmer would probably "age" quickly enough to get close to the final pH of 8.2. But if it goes from 7 to 7.2... maybe that takes some more information.

I'm thinking like a 4" PVC pipe full of the bio balls. Could rig in a sprayer through a drilled pipe cap to blast down into it. PVC is like $25 for a 10' drain pipe, the whole thing wouldn't take much to do, really. My refill pump outpumps my tap water so I'd have to think about controlling that somehow. In theory, I could start this water aging when I start draining the tank and it would be mostly full by the time I'm ready to fill.

Just spit-balling, I guess. For what I'm currently doing, it's not that big of a deal to continue as I currently am.

[dspeers]

Look at in line heaters. Biggest problem is that most require a 30A circuit which requires an electrician or skills I do not currently possess. Would also be the most expensive part of the system. Can't prove it (yet) but I am guessing that heating the water will force out the majority of the CO2, so testing anything with cold water would be inaccurate. I think any design that markedly increases the surface area would work, and your trickle-down towers are well suited and if 1 is insufficient could be rigged with 2 or 3 in parallel. Also, increasing the vertical footprint would reduce the horizontal one which is cool. In addition you could over heat (to say 86 or 88 degrees (I am old I think in F)) the water with a resultant faster loss of CO2 and depend on the tower(s) to cool the water to the desired temp. The idea of eliminating the storage requirement and the obligate increased number of tasks, as well as space and time considerations is intriguing.

If you make a tower and run the test please let us know, if not I will definitely try this but not for a few more months.

[jeep]

Look at in line heaters. Biggest problem is that most require a 30A circuit which requires an electrician or skills I do not currently possess.

This is why I've been wondering if an electric tankless water heater would work. The bigger units are 220v and are expensive but they also make smaller units that work on 120v for between $75-$150. It wouldn't have to be powerful enough for regular house usage, just powerful enough to raise the temp to 78-80 degrees. I kind of question if the 120v unit would provide long term reliability.

[jwcarlson]

Yes, and a 240V circuit at that. If I were going to put in an on-demand heater it would probably be gas. I think. Though I don't know the pro/cons between the two.

I do understand that cold water testing would be inaccurate, however... I think it might allow me to reach some conclusions or draw parallels, because we know warmer water dissipates better.
I do not start heating my water until about 10 AM for water change around 6 PM. But it is aerated the entire time. I could do plenty of testing in order to at least get a decent idea of what is currenting happening in my system. I don't bother because I don't care, frankly. It's working just fine. I am currently trying to figure out what I have that could be put in the tower of PVC pipe that would allow me to fill it, because I have some bioballs, but not enough to fill that entire tower, I don't think. I've got various filter floss and stuff like that.

I know that before I've been saying that if it's not "instant" than it doesn't matter. But thinking more I do have a 15-20 minute gap in which the water could be 'turbo aging' and pre-heating. The filling of and storage of a barrel isn't a big deal.
I'm also looking more towards having additional tanks, but honestly, if not doing massive water changes like I do in the discus tank, it probably doesn't matter much if I do a 25% water change on a 55 and use un-aged water. And it might not even matter that much if it's just tap-water cold either, honestly.

I got suckered into taking 15 swordtail fry from my in-laws and I've been doing small water changes on their tank every 2-3 nights and just dumping straight cold tap water back on top of them and they don't seem to bat an eye, so perhaps it's less of a big deal for that type of situation.

[jwcarlson]

This is why I've been wondering if an electric tankless water heater would work. The bigger units are 220v and are expensive but they also make smaller units that work on 120v for between $75-$150. It wouldn't have to be powerful enough for regular house usage, just powerful enough to raise the temp to 78-80 degrees. I kind of question if the 120v unit would provide long term reliability.

Most of those 120V units are for situations where you've got a sink and someone is going to wash their hands occasionally, like in an RV type setting or something like that. I would guess they would struggle with running near full-out for 30-40 minutes? But maybe I'm wrong. Even at 120V raising water temp 15-20 degrees instantly is going to take some juice. Might do some digging to see if anyone has used one of those smaller units in this type of way. As long as it functions reliably it wouldn't matter much to me if the filling process took longer because it's not really "hand time".

[jeep]

Yes, legitimate concerns about the 120v unit. Hopefully it's an evolving thought process that can be perfected by the time I install it...