Expert Help in Connecticut?

[rkershen]

Q: There are other things in the water that need to be replenished. The fact that the auto changer is just removing water from the top of the tank means it’s not moving anything in the rest of the tank. Others have had problems with auto changers for this reason. Is there a water changer in the other main tank?
A: no on the other ones i do manual changes. What other things in the water are you thinking of that would be cycled out and not replaced?

Q: I wonder if it's something that might take more than a couple of months to manifest. In the quarantine, it's managed but; then, when they are moved (stressed) it gets the upper hand.
Are there diseases that might work that way?

A: I had the same thought exactly. Wondering if I should treat the whole Display tank with Metro and Kanamycin for a few days after moving fish. they seem to be fine initially then get sick. Really weird.... Given the size of the tank, and the cost of meds I've been hesitant to try and do that.....

[jeep]

Can you summarize the exact differences between the QT tanks process and the main show tank in a single post? Like I said, this looks like it's going to be a process of deduction. I helped someone for several months on time, who had similar issues to yours, and after a long time we finally figured out the pump he used for water changes was not potable rated and oil from the bearings was contaminating the holding barrels. It could be something as basic but not obvious as this somewhere along the process. I still have a feeling it's related to the other fish but it could be a mechanical issue as well...

Do you still have the cardinals or did I miss something? One thing to consider is moving all dither fish into their own tank, then sanitize the show tank and start again with discus only in the show tank.

Your tank temp is fine. I keep all discus at 82 and always have, although some do keep them at higher temps.

The red patches are a real concern but aeromonas usually produces an obvious large open wound which many people mistake for a heater burn.

Until this is resolved, I would definitely increase your water changes. I know it's a lot of water, but 50% daily can help reduce any pathogens and toxins. After the issue is resolved you can adjust as you see fit.

Yes, stress can help to manifest other illnesses. Stress is the main cause of hex.

I think treating a 170g tank with antibiotics would be a waste of time, effort and money at this point. The cause is probably much simpler, we just need to uncover it...

[Iminit]

Well if the discus in the tank doing conventional water changes are all fine but the discus in the auto water change are dying within 2 weeks of entering it. My first thing would be stop the auto changer and go back to covpnvential. There are no problem in the other tanks.

[fljones3]

I would also go with manual water changes, 40-50%. Water is where I would first look.
I also keep my discus at 82F with no issues.

[Second Hand Pat]

I am with Brian on this. There is something happening in the large tank which is not happening in the QTs. Could be the pump running the main tank as suggest by Brian. Some other considerations is where is the main tank located vs the QTs. If the main tank is located a separate part of the house is there anything being sprayed around the main tank (air freshener comes to mind).

Pat

[jeep]

Curious, did you get the other fish from a single source?

[bossanova]

thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses and questions. here are my answers:

Q: Is there any difference between the quarantine tank setup and the display tank? What size? Same substrat, same 18% WC, etc.
A: I have about 8 tanks in my basement for new discus. all are bare bottom except for two of them which also have sand. - the discus who did not make it in the display were in both types of tanks and were introduced at different times (ie. first group from one tank who didn't last long then a couple of months later the second group). Both sets were from same breeder. i generally only do WC's on those tanks q 2-3 days (50%) and they were doing great for 2-3 mos in the quarantine tanks.

Comment: If this only seems to happen after you transfer the discus to the new tank then I suspect some sort of cross contamintaion.
Can you tell us who the seller is? If you're not comfortable you can send me a private message. (PM will be sent)
A: i agree. i was worried about that and thought maybe the cardinal tetras that died introduced some bad bacteria that were lingering. After the first group of discus got sick I treated the tank with PP and left it empty for a while, then re-established it with more cardinals who did great before i re-introduced any discus.

Q: Ok so you still have the store bought and what’s left of the wattleys in another tank? How is this tank running? Same as the 170? Discus are fine through out qt. Eating well and acting normal. How long does it take for them to start getting sick?
Not a fan of auto changers. From where does the water exit the tank? The bottom? 81 is kind of low. Lowest is 82 and most go to 84. Ph is 6.0 out of tap? Do the discus get dark once in the new tank?
A: yes, i have about four tanks with discus and all have been running about 2 years. Discus are fine during prolonged quarantine. Occasionally I have had some whirling etc in which case I quarantine those fish and treat them individually.
My other display tank with the Wattley guys also have some discuss from Discus Madness and My local breeder (those fish are more than 2 years old) and I have had no problems with Cross Contam and that tank also has sand and driftwood.
First week in the display everything fine.
Second week they stop eating
Third week the dying starts. (usually try to save them back in QT prior to death but nothing has worked).
They don't turn black. No fin clamping.
At the end of life a few have gotten some red patches so I was worried about vibrio/aeromonas.
First group that died got swollen/dropsy after a while. Second group that died did not.

I no longer have any living fish from the breeder whose fish did not make it in display. (name sent privately)

Tank temp is mostly at 82-84.
AUTO WC is via an apex controller and two dose pumps.
WC occurs at the top third of the tank and occurs over 16 hours per day.
Water is in the 6ish range out of the tap, probably in part as I have a whole house filter in place.


Q/Comment:
1. Your temp. may be too low, I keep it up to 84-86
I have tried to keep it a little lower so that the Sterbais and Cardinals and Congos can handle it ok. Do you think I should raise the temp?

2. Your auto-changer. Do 50-75% daily or every other day, and use a big dose of seachem SAFE (forget prime for big tanks). I learned the hard way that in my city I needed to double the dose on the packaging, as well as dose for the full volume of my tank+sump even if I only changed 50%. Haven’t had an issue in years.

I can try to bump up the Daily WC to 40gallons (20%) but don't think my AW system can do much more than that.
What I was thinking was to do a bigger manual change once per week (more like 50%)

Would you add safe directly to the tank or into the Water storage container?

Q, how much and what type of bio media are you running? Can you add airstones to your tan
All three large canister filters have a huge amount of seachem matrix in them (massive amount actually.

Hi, I suggested a higher temp because that’s what works for me, and you had indicated 81-83… but really I think your problem is this autochanger. I add safe directly in my tank as I refill from tap.

[Iminit]

Curious, did you get the other fish from a single source?

He got the first of his fish from a few different sources. It’s in his post. They seem to be doing ok in his regular refilling tank. That’s why I think it’s something to do with the auto changer or the supplier. All other fish are doing fine in auto changer tank. I’d like to know who the supplier is. Ive had a problem with an approved supplier too. Discus spent 2 months in qt and were fine. When added to main tank they did terrible one died and the other 2 look like when I got them. No growth.

[dspeers]

Some excellent observations & suggestions, and although I doubt the Apex doser is causing the issue it is a point source of variation so is certainly a good target for a change in practice to see what effects you get.

At this point all of the fish from the one breeder have died with what looks like dropsy/bloat. You mentioned salt, NaCl or Epsom salt? Also, given no evidence of disease in this tank other than the discus from the single supplier, do you have a potential hero discus you really don't like much? You could add that 1 fish as a hero and observe. I might start there as it is still unknown whether the tank is even an issue. Wouldn't leave him there by himself too long due to stress but your problems always manifested within 2 weeks.

Also, when the discus were moved into the DT what if any diet changes did you make? Finally, you indicated that the discus were quarantined for several months, just out of curiosity, how long is several?

Good luck, Don

[jeep]

I'm pretty confident the dither fish are the source. After talking with Tammy and Cary, I wouldn't rule out the aeromonas theory. If not that specifically, there seems to be some sort of non-traditional bacterial issue that the dithers seems to be immune to, that's assuming all discus have been introduced to each other with no issues.

This is why I would try this project in reverse. Move the dithers, sterilize the show tank and begin with the discus, or at least a few of them. If they are ok then he could either use a hero or pick up a cull that has been QT'd and introduce it to the dither tank.

[Iminit]

Guess it could be the dithers. Though I’ve never lost a dither fish. Discus all caught in the cross contamination not a dither showed anything. They do seem to be stronger than discus. After the first 3 discus died you did another pp treatment. Did you do this with the dither fish in the tank? Do you have a ground probe in the main tank?

[rkershen]

Will send you pm. on this.

[rkershen]

Thank you for your thoughtful comments and questions.
first batch fish were under QT 2 months in QT in my Basement eating well and no signs of illness.
Second batch were 3 months in QT, again, healthy.

I treated with NACL and Metro initially.
then Epsom salt in first batch of fish that developed Bloat.
Second batch I introduced after PP and one month of no discuss in DT did not get bloat, just anorexia (loss of appetite) and stopped eating. I did not treat these with Epsom as no bloat.
I like the idea of a hero fish. don't have any I would be willing to test at the moment. I was worried about stress causing the issue for an isolated fish in a big aquarium.

I did feed them freeze dried black worms which perhaps was an error as though they had been eating in quarantine, perhaps digestion slowed down after some stress from the move to the DT and they could not digest as easily.

[rkershen]

yes. i did the PP with the dithers in the thank.
What is a ground probe? never heard of this.

[bossanova]

Basically an electrical wire that runs from your tank to a ground. If you have any equipment leaking voltage in the water it would definitely be an issue. I had a heater do that once. An aqueon pro, btw.