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Thread: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

  1. #1
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    Default Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    I recently F'd up. I am OCD about the husbandry of my fish but I didnt pay attention when administering the same dose of excel as in past. The bottom line is the way I administerd it overdosed the Discus in my 175 gal planted tank w/ 6 mature 6-8" Electric Blues. I overdosed Flourish Excel and it looks like the Polycycloglutaracetal - an isomeric form of glutaraldehyde poisoned my babies. As soon as I realized what was going on approx. 1 hour into the process I began 60% daily h20 changes for 3 days. I moved the smaller discus out that passed and the other 2 to a hospital tank. My largest died 1 day into the hospital tank . I orig. bathed in salt and then just seachem stress guard and now almond leaves. As a side this didn't impact any of my other fish as I have 15 mature clowns and 50 Rummy Nose Tetras as well as 10 Cory's and 3 blonde blue eyed plecos.

    Ammonia -0
    Nitrates - 0
    Nitrates - 10
    Ph - 7.1

    Planted tank. I've moved my stick fish in a 10 gal hosptal tank so H20 parameters are all zero as I do daily changes of 50% with RO/DI H20 85% & 15% tap h20 and circulate surface h20 with a pump & heat @ 86.

    This last fish has less labored breathing but is still not in control of its bouyancy and is currently against the side of the tank (upside down for the last 2 days) but moving fins to balance & is up. Fish not ready to eat but is having BM's & looks healthy. Treating with Rock NaCl & API fungus cure. Planning on starting API melafix tom. W/ 2nd dose of anti fungal to address cotton white lesions from stress of asphyxiation. I state all of this not as a know it all but with humility looking for feedback.

    Is this a lost cause or should I continue to wait and see if he recovers as I have literally scoured the internet and cannot find any relevant info on recovery techniques for this. Any advice on treatment if any is appreciated as well as when do i know I should be considering euthanizing and if so how?

    The attached pics show day 1 and yesterday day 2 with lesion that began. Water is dark due to meds.


    20230110_205416.jpg20230109_164616.jpg

    Thank you,
    Dale (Contrarian)

  2. #2
    Registered Member BrendanJ23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Sorry to hear about your fish. In my experience, I wouldn’t go too crazy with the meds. Imagine if you’ve been poisoned, last thing you want it heaps of meds jammed down your throat. Warm clean water, with salt to help them de-stress and recover. Less is more sometimes..
    21 Discus, 7 Green Tree Frogs, 3 Eastern Dwarf Tree frogs, 1 Coastal Carpet Python,6 sawshelled/Murray river turtles, 2 dogs, a cat, 2 kids and a wife. Phew...what a mouthful


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    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Quote Originally Posted by BrendanJ23 View Post
    Sorry to hear about your fish. In my experience, I wouldn’t go too crazy with the meds. Imagine if you’ve been poisoned, last thing you want it heaps of meds jammed down your throat. Warm clean water, with salt to help them de-stress and recover. Less is more sometimes..
    Yes, lots of clean water changes and 2-3TBS salt per 10g. Hopefully it'll pull through...

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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    What about the lesion on its side?

    Only 1 med being used so it's not crammed but trying to reverse what appears to be painful. Thanks! I'm currently doing the salt.

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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Perhaps this was a coincidence and not the direct cause, especially since only one fish involved

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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Oh man- really sorry about this. If the lesions look bacterial, perhaps an antibiotic may help. I agree with others that clean fresh water, salt and heat if they are not eating. Let us know what happens

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    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Sorry to hear all this going on in your tank. I'm not sure about the poisoning but that lesion looks alot like what we see with heater Burns. Often times a sick or spooked fish wedges themself between the heater and glass, or just lays against it.

    Have a look here..
    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...15+heater+burn

    al
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Thank you. All of my heaters are in a sump. The lesion formed after the slime coat deteriorated when asphyxiation took place & stress allowed bacteria to get in. The fish "blue moon" is beginning to recover after adding anti-bacterial formula. I'm rooting for him. He's getting stronger & wound has shown remarkable improvement. Hopefully the next few days will have him pull through.
    Last edited by Contrarian; 01-15-2023 at 05:24 AM.

  9. #9
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    That's good news. The lesion almost looks like aeromonas. I didn't notice it in the beginning and thought that was a reflection. What anti bacterial formula did you use? API?
    Last edited by jeep; 01-15-2023 at 11:00 AM.

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    Registered Member Tkuilderd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    I am also interested in what was used on this fish.
    Thank you,
    Tammy

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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    I added 3-4 Indian almond leaves which is why it's darker. I initially treated for fungal but thought it's bacterial & was correct. Utilized api anti fungal with no visibility results & 3.5 tbs NaCl to 10 gal tank. When I added API melafix I noticed immed results on lesion healing & added vigor from what was a listless fish that had slowed breathing at best.
    Today Sunday Jan 15th he is 3/4 on side and lateral fins have him almost able to balance vertically.
    He's still somewhat sideways but appears to be growing stronger but still a little unsure if my buddy is out of the woods. NOTE: This overdose occurred with 6 adult discus. 3 died, 2 survived and 1 is in my Rx tank. Please share your expertise/experiences with any Discus you took to the edge & back again if u can & any additional suggestions.

  12. #12
    Registered Member Tkuilderd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    I am going to give you my thoughts on this, aeromonas is very hard to treat. The initial sickness you were treating was most likely aeromonas. You added the excel (glutaraldehyde) which disinfected the tank, discus and all. There was most likely already an abscess forming on this fish but the glutaraldehyde stopped the infection due to the overdose of the medication. Melafix has been proven not to treat any type of bacterial infection. (If you want the research i can provide it).
    At this point, i would raise the NaCl to 5tbs per 10G for a few days to a week then slowly lower it as he improves.
    If the wound begins to get larger again, i would use an antibiotic (preferably Kanamycin Sulfate).
    You are only the 2nd person from hundreds of cases that have had fish improve. Please keep us informed on any progress.

    Tammy

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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Thank you Tammy. How long would you expect it to take the fish to be strong enough to right itself? Or is the following symptom change the idea of recovery? He's of laying 50% on its side & 50% upright but not strong enough to do it on its own as it's balanced off the current from airstone? I'm asking to see if you think there may have been neurological damage that won't allow it to swim upright again? I'm just trying to understand if it's wishful thinking about improvements based on less then 1% recovery?
    Last how long can he go without eating?
    Last edited by Contrarian; 01-17-2023 at 03:53 AM.

  14. #14
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrarian View Post
    Thank you Tammy. How long would you expect it to take the fish to be strong enough to right itself? Or is the following symptom change the idea of recovery? He's of laying 50% on its side & 50% upright but not strong enough to do it on its own as it's balanced off the current from airstone? I'm asking to see if you think there may have been neurological damage that won't allow it to swim upright again? I'm just trying to understand if it's wishful thinking about improvements based on less then 1% recovery?
    Last how long can he go without eating?
    He can go several weeks with out food . Can you post current pictures.?

    I know this is added work but for the photos please try and light the tank from above and turn off room lights and use no flash. Its really hard to see the lesion clearly and important. If it is deep into the fishes cavitydeep tissue its unikely the fish will live. Superficial exterior injuries can heal.

    Unfortunately discus can hang on a long time past when recovery is likely. I hope your fish pulls through though.

    Al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 01-17-2023 at 09:34 AM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  15. #15
    Registered Member Tkuilderd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrarian View Post
    Thank you Tammy. How long would you expect it to take the fish to be strong enough to right itself? Or is the following symptom change the idea of recovery? He's of laying 50% on its side & 50% upright but not strong enough to do it on its own as it's balanced off the current from airstone? I'm asking to see if you think there may have been neurological damage that won't allow it to swim upright again? I'm just trying to understand if it's wishful thinking about improvements based on less then 1% recovery?
    Last how long can he go without eating?
    The problem is, with overdosing on gluteraldehyde, we dont know what problems he is having. I do not know what side effect gluteraldehyde can have. It can be that lack of oxygen in the water has caused problems with the swim bladder mechanism, the gills may be burned or any number of other things including kidney failure.
    Methylene blue is said to help for ammonia burn on the gills but at this point i would worry about adding more medications since he is not up and swimming.
    How does the wound on his side look. As Brewmaster mentioned a video would help.

    Tammy

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