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Thread: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

  1. #46
    Registered Member Tkuilderd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrarian View Post
    In my mind, this appears to be a swim bladder recovery issue at this point. Any advice?
    I agree that it appears the swim bladder has deflated. Recovery, if its possible, is lengthy. I dont recommend trying things like slings, if thats where you were going, as those cause more harm than good. Most important is keeping the bottom and sides of the tank as clean as possible. You dont want him laying in sludges of bacteria. Aquarium salt at 1 tbs per 10G can help some. Even as high as 4tbs per 10G. You can run antibiotics after breaks of a week to 10 days but i dont think its a good idea to wipe out the beneficial bacteria like that. It also kills gut bacteria which you dont want. So mainly just keeping water changes and wiping down the glass is the best medicine.

    Tammy

  2. #47
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Great, sound advice Tammy. TY.

    He is trying so hard! It's hard to tell at times what is recovery vs. plateauing because it feels metaphorically like I'm performing triage from behind a curtain. I point this out because without the members of SD.com I'd have lost this fish 2 weeks ago. Thank you From the bottom of my ❤️!!
    After 4 days with 50-60% h20 changes I'm hoping to have removed any remaining medication & placed an established sponge filter in the hospital tank. It's from my 50 gal sump that is with my main tank.
    Considering what I've shared about the fish & the latest videos posted of the fish recovers to have swim bladder functionality & neutral bouyancy how long does everyone think it will take?
    I'd like to know when & how i know this is permanent? My guess is to let this play out thru the end of February & I'll come back to this forum to seek consensus.
    Last edited by Contrarian; 02-02-2023 at 01:33 PM.

  3. #48
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    It can take some time, even months, to recover if it recovers at all. I've read that you can possibly inject air directly into the swim bladder using a syringe. Whether this will be a permanent solution just depends on the fish. I would do some additional research on this procedure.

    As an experiment, I would be tempted to add 1 or 2 cap fulls of hydrogen peroxide for every 10g every other day for a few days. I certainly wouldn't hurt anything and the extra o2 may at least relieve some stress.

    I would also try adding 3TBS salt per 10g every other water change, adding back the amount of salt removed during the water changes to not go over 3TBS per 10.

  4. #49
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Quote Originally Posted by pablos View Post
    You said it was an overdose. Might I asked how much did you add excel into your tank?

    Multiple times I was adding double dose of excel with no side effect or issue for a fish
    I essentially completed a double dose which never hurt the Discus previously. However, I ran out of RO/DI h20 during my weekly water change causing me to not be able to run my filters. I had added the excel which ended up being a higher then double dose initially bcse it only mixed with the show tank & not the extra h20 I still needed to add & the 50 gal in the sump. I figured it would be okay temporarily & attended a virtual meeting for work. When I returned roughly 45 min later was to seeing all of the Discus at the surface gasping along with their slime coat turning white & beg. to shed off. Considering how I did this is also a big factor as I don't think it was the amount that overdosed as much as a perfect storm of conditions that led to this IMHO.

  5. #50
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Quote Originally Posted by jeep View Post
    It can take some time, even months, to recover if it recovers at all. I've read that you can possibly inject air directly into the swim bladder using a syringe. Whether this will be a permanent solution just depends on the fish. I would do some additional research on this procedure.

    As an experiment, I would be tempted to add 1 or 2 cap fulls of hydrogen peroxide for every 10g every other day for a few days. I certainly wouldn't hurt anything and the extra o2 may at least relieve some stress.

    I would also try adding 3TBS salt per 10g every other water change, adding back the amount of salt removed during the water changes to not go over 3TBS per 10.
    How would one "inject" into the swim bladder? I'm afraid of piercing the wrong organ so I'd likely seek the guidance of a seasoned traveler. Do you think 2 capfuls of h202 will do anything? What are you thinking it will do essentially?
    Would a temp salt bath be more effective then adding a lower amount in the tank?

  6. #51
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    I've used peroxide when a shipment goes bad and the discus are laying on the bottom for a few days. The o2 levels increased and they recovered but I don't remember if the bladder appeared to be deflated and it could have just been shock or ammonia poisoning. I know it's not the same issue but possibly the increased o2 in the bloodstream may have an effect. Just shot in the dark and it won't hurt anything...

    I didn't read back to see how much salt you're using, but some time ago we had a member with tail standing issues. By alternating levels of sodium chloride up and down, the discus recovered, possibly by increasing/decreasing the osmotic pressure in the discus? The difference is these discus were poisoned with an overdose of flubendazole. Another shot in the dark with something that won't hurt the fish.

    I would be afraid of piercing my discus as well, which is why I would search the internet for the procedure and then decide if you want to try it. I would never feel comfortable telling someone to do something this intricate, or give instructions, that I haven't done before.

  7. #52
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Update:
    Discus has grown stronger but has plateaued. After watching him lay on his side (causing his fin to atrophy) I decided to add a pump with current. Now he spends time upright or moving from side back to upright.

    I'm still struggling with getting the fish to eat. I've raised the temp to 87° F to help increase metabolism in hopes of eating but no luck after 3 days. I have kept salt in the h20 @ 3 tblsp for my 10 gallons with regular 30-50% changes.

    Any advice on eating? It's been so long since he has eaten. He was a healthy guy with good fat reserves but I know this won't last much longer. All ideas welcome.

    Here is 2 video updates.
    https://youtu.be/UMis07aDAtk
    https://youtu.be/4aCzVbBeChs

  8. #53
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    I know you really want to save this fish and you have done so much to do that. But there comes a time when the humane thing is to euthanize the fish. Its not regaining its balance and its not eating. Looking at the video its gills are pumping very fast.

    When people post their sick fish here I always hope for the best case scenario where the fish makes a full recovery but sometimes that just doesnt happen and the hard decision needs to be made out of respect and compassion for that fishes life. I honestly think you are at that point. I'm sorry.

    Al
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  9. #54
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    I appreciate the candid advice Al. I've been saying the same thing to my wife. As a dedicated hobbiest, I pride myself on my husbandry & often times that can confuse things where I need to be clinical not emotional. Do you advise turning the temp up to 90's F & adding salt to euthanize?

  10. #55
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    No I wouldnt do that. Many hobbyists turn to clove oil to euthanize their pet fish. I have never used that. Whether its the best way or not I cant say but what I do is fill a bucket with ice cold water.. literally add ice if you need to and put the fish into it...and usually with discus thats all it takes... the other method used is a sharp smack with something. It works but I find my cold water bucket method to be alls I need.
    Al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  11. #56
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Thanks Al. For me, I utilized clove oil bcse it's proven. It worked.

    The lesson learned for anyone reading this is if using live plants with fish is to not cut corners with Seachem's Exel as it is truly an algaecide although promoted as a liquid carbon. Even though it's considered safe by many who claim to utilize it Discus specifically are sensitive to it as my Clowns, Rummy Nose Tetras, assorted Chory's & Bristle Nose Pleco's were okay. Only my Discus were impacted. After hours of introspection my best assessment is that somehow the chemicals permanently damaged the fish's swim bladder based upon the perfect storm I created with the dosing & lack of circulation for 30-45 min.

  12. #57
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Well I'll go on record here to say not only did I raise a lot of Discus and huge plants in clay flower pots in a bare bottom tank, I even had pairs in community Discus tanks spawning every month for years. Raising young to wigglers before they were ate by Rummy nosed Tetras. I used a full assortment of Seachem plant products and switched to this in the link provided. NEVER did I have any Discus abnormalities while using Excel products. My plants grew to huge proportions. My discus and tetras were fine.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/163864482732

  13. #58
    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    Well I'll go on record here to say not only did I raise a lot of Discus and huge plants in clay flower pots in a bare bottom tank, I even had pairs in community Discus tanks spawning every month for years. Raising young to wigglers before they were ate by Rummy nosed Tetras. I used a full assortment of Seachem plant products and switched to this in the link provided. NEVER did I have any Discus abnormalities while using Excel products. My plants grew to huge proportions. My discus and tetras were fine.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/163864482732
    I've used that stuff before for about a year. I thought it would be a good cheap replacement for Excel. I still think that's why my rams all developed tumors. Stopped using it and no more tumors. This was my experience.

  14. #59
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    Quote Originally Posted by bluelagoon View Post
    I've used that stuff before for about a year. I thought it would be a good cheap replacement for Excel. I still think that's why my rams all developed tumors. Stopped using it and no more tumors. This was my experience.
    Many other companies use the exact product ingredients, IIRC API is one.
    Maybe some fish do have problems or toxicity to it. I'd think they would to the same ingredient bottled for fish use as well.
    Like I said no fish died or had tumors in my tanks.
    I respect your opinion greatly you're a very knowledgeable member.
    It does come with a package you're to add to it to sterilize medical gear, of course I never added it as it was not being used as a sterilizer.
    Rams and Rummy nosed Tetras are very delicate fish yet my rummy nosed Tetras did well and grew very large with no outward signs of problems.

  15. #60
    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick Diamond Blue after Excel overdose

    It was only the rams (10 of them) that developed tumors on their sides all other community fish in the tank seemed fine. The rams may or may not have been so inbred that their immune systems were compromised to begin with. But after seeing that I didn't like putting my bare hands in the tank. Seachem won't say what chemicals they use in most of their products. The Metricide did make the plants grow well tho.
    Last edited by bluelagoon; 02-23-2023 at 09:35 AM.

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