AquaticSuppliers.com     Cafepress Store

Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Oak leaf tank trials

  1. #1
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Northford,CT,USA
    Posts
    26,729

    Default Oak leaf tank trials

    As alluded to here..
    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...te-with-Coffee

    I have been looking at water treatment options to jump start my pairs breeding again. Peat is a great way to lower pH in water and add tanins which is what I want. Indian almond leaves are used alot by hobbyists but I want something local and free would be great. I have used oak leaves and oak bark in the past but I never really did it and kept any meaningful notes.

    So I decided to run an experiment..
    29 gal tank
    2 adult discus
    Starting pH 7.6 aged water
    2 mature cycled sponges.
    Oak leaves as described here...

    Now with peat I put it in a nylon stocking and rinse it well. Then I put it in a hang on back of tank filter and run the water thru it. To do the same with oak leaves I would need to grind them up and thats too much work! Instead I opted for adding a divider made of foam. On one side I will stuff all the leaves and have aeration to help with decomposition and tannin leaching. The other side is the pair of fish with a sponge filter and breeding cone.

    20230202_095759.jpg
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-02-2023 at 01:08 PM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  2. #2
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Northford,CT,USA
    Posts
    26,729

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    I wanted to have an idea of how much oak leaf litter I needed to see "X" effect.. so I picked a random point to start. I gathered 50-60 oak leaves. I probably could use far less but they are free. These were collected from my yard. I chose red oak leaves as they have more tannins than white oaks.As I collected them I realized that I still need more info. I wanted to weigh them. That would give me more info so I could duplicate things better if the oak leaves work out. To do that I need to dry them as they were currently wet and frozen. In the oven they go at 300 F for about 30 mins with the door open a crack..

    20230202_101607.jpg

    Nice and dry
    20230202_103630.jpg

    Next up I will weigh the leaves and add them to the tank. But that will have to wait until this afternoon. Have a medical appt to take someone to.

    Al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-02-2023 at 01:05 PM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  3. #3
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Northford,CT,USA
    Posts
    26,729

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    Weighed.. 35 grams
    20230202_140240.jpg

    Tanked
    20230202_140555.jpg

    It will take a day or two for them to soak.

    Al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  4. #4
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    935
    Real Name
    Jacob

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    I feel like I'm watching something illegal go down with all these leaves and baggies and scales.

  5. #5
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Northford,CT,USA
    Posts
    26,729

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    I feel like I'm watching something illegal go down with all these leaves and baggies and scales.
    Lmao.. hey I wonder how much tannin is in hemp? wiki says "Hemp is used to make a variety of commercial and industrial products, including rope, textiles, clothing, shoes, food, paper, bioplastics, insulation, and biofuel.[4] The bast fibers can be used to make textiles that are 100% hemp, but they are commonly blended with other fibers, such as flax, cotton or silk, as well as virgin and recycled polyester, to make woven fabrics for apparel and furnishings. The inner two fibers of the plant are woodier and typically have industrial applications, such as mulch, animal bedding, and litter." Oh but wait..you meant the other hemp. ..lol.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  6. #6
    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Halifax,Canada
    Posts
    2,495
    Real Name
    Mervin

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    I've used Rooibos tea but that was just because I like the tannin look. Not sure if it helps with breeding tho.

  7. #7
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Northford,CT,USA
    Posts
    26,729

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    Not a bad start.. the leaves are starting to release tannins now.. my pH has dropped to 6.9 ..

    20230204_171619.jpg

    My control tank which is same set minus the spobge wall and leaves is. Steady at 7.5
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-04-2023 at 06:18 PM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  8. #8
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    626

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    Pretty cool

  9. #9
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    935
    Real Name
    Jacob

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    What's your hardness, Al? Or KH specifically, I guess.
    That seems like a pretty big drop in pH?

  10. #10
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Northford,CT,USA
    Posts
    26,729

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    Jacob I honestly havent measured them in decades but somewhere on this forum I did post them ..lol and did a similar experiment with oak bark... got my water down to pH 4 that time around..

    Seriously though my KH was between 1 and 2 at the time Gh is moderatedly hard.

    I have some interesting well water. My pH out of my tap is about 5.5 in the winter, 6.5 summer. ..aged after 24 hours. Its 7.5. -7.6 after blowing off Co2. My pH can crash fast... which is why I buffer the water with crushed coral when growing out fry..

    Al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  11. #11
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    31,668
    Real Name
    Pat

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    Very cool Al and you do have interesting well water. My well water out of tap is 7.4 and bumps to 8.2 after four hours of aging. I'm tempted to try the oak leaves in an aging bin My oak leaves are live oak and the leaves are small but dense.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  12. #12
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Northford,CT,USA
    Posts
    26,729

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    Pat, My water aquifer I believe is more trap rock.. A very large part of the town I live in is literally a quarry for traprock. Florida generally has a calcareous limestone aquifer...which is probably why your water has pH is like that..I am guessing that if you did measure kH or have, thats its a relatively high kH. I'm not sure if you will see a huge pH change, but its going to be proportionate to the amount of Leaves you use. In water like yours I think you would see a stronger response by filtering through Peat. Peat releases tannins, but also acts as an ion exchange resin in a sense. This is well known in living sphagnum mosses and would explain why filtering through peat softens water and lowers KH

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...ences/sphagnum
    Sphagnum cell walls exhibit a high cation exchange capacity whereby nutrient cations (e.g., NH4+, Ca2+, Mg2+, K+) are taken up from the environment in exchange for protons. This acidifying mechanism causes cell walls to express a pH as low as 3.3, a condition that regenerates and remains active in live plants. Cell wall bound polyuronic acids rich in galacturonic residues, which can constitute between 10–30% of plant dry weight in Sphagnum, appear responsible for this behavior. This exchange mechanism allows Sphagnum to succeed under conditions of low nutrient availability and also acidifies the environment, inhibiting the establishment or growth of many vascular and nonvascular plant competitors and influencing succession in fen and bog ecosystems. During succession in Sphagnum-dominated ecosystems, pH can drop from >7 to <4. However, this is caused only in part by the cell wall cation exchanger. Sphagnum also produces organic acids, which form the primary source of acidifying protons in bogs.

    I do see a much more rapid drop in my tanks with peat. If I had a current GH KH testkit it would be interesting to look at.. I have been just measuring pH because to me it gives me the answers I need.


    al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-06-2023 at 08:56 AM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  13. #13
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    31,668
    Real Name
    Pat

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    Hi Al, I suspect you are right regarding peat. It just seems so messy. Perhaps I should try however. Regarding my kH, it ranges between 180 to 220 so not horrible depending on the season. My well depth is over 330 feet so for sure it is in the Florida aquifer. It's not great water for drinking, we have an under counter ro system with a three gallon tank for drinking and coffee making water.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  14. #14
    Homesteader jwcarlson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    935
    Real Name
    Jacob

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    That's pretty cool well water. Everything here is limestone. Kind of jealous, honestly.

  15. #15
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Northford,CT,USA
    Posts
    26,729

    Default Re: Oak leaf tank trials

    I am very lucky here. I really love water I am on. It tastes great, and really is good for a whole range of aquatic organisms. with little fussing. Which is why I really don't want to risk my well with RO.. I really don't need RO to breed discus discus here.. even with my water as is, I get hatch rates of 30-50% and have bred wilds in my tap... These trials are all about triggering spawning for me and maybe increasing my hatch rates without wasting well water,


    al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Cafepress