All Discus dying. Can't Keep them. URGENT.

[discus2501]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Discus are gasping at the top, falling down to the bottom and dying. All of my discus died in the same way. I bought few new ones and they also died within one week the same way. The Rummynose Tetra and Balloon Rams are perfectly fine.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Not swimming around the tank or coming for food. Simply gasps at the top while headstanding and and then falls to the bottom and dies. The Discus and Rams do scratch on objects.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

I have tried salt with no improvement. I tried giving light Methylene blue bath, that killed them quicker. I used to do PP baths every week. But, haven't used it on new discus which are dying regardless.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

Tank size: 75 gallons. I had 15 Discus of different sizes, All dead. I bought 8 new discus, they died too.


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

Right now, I'm doing 50% every day.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tank has been running for 4 years now. It has a thin layer of river sand. I removed the sand now.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

I don't age my water. My tap water is 7.0. pH, it finally settles to 7.4.


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

I use Sodium Thiosulfate. I use it directly when doing a water change.

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp _____25 Degrees Celsius last few weaks now I used heater at 30 Degree Celsius

- ph _____ 7.4

- ammonia reading ____ 0

- nitrite reading ____ 0

- nitrate reading ____ 25 (Tap water has nitrates)

- TDS ______ 125-150 for 3 years but suddenly increased to 218 this month. (That is what I'm suspecting)

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____ 0%

- municipal water ____ 100%

- RO water ____ 0%


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

All the discus died so I added new fish to the tank directly.


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

I feed them beefheart 3 to 6 times a day, depending on size


12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

[brewmaster15]

Hi, Sorry to hear the issues here.. A couple of notes..

1) We need to see pics of the tank and fish

2) contact your water company and see if they add Chloramines or just Chlorine.. If they are all headstanding and dying, that sounds like chemical poisoning. though I would expect the The Rummynose Tetra and Balloon Rams to have died too.

3)You may be overfeeding the beefheart depending on how much you feed (3-6X a day) per feeding and with your water changes. You mentioned you are doing 50% daily "NOW" what were you typically doing before? Do you make this or buy it premade?

4) putting your new fish into a tank where your discus without knowing why they died is really not a good idea... its asking for a possible problem again

5)

I used to do PP baths every week

even though you didn't do this with both groups I still want to point it out.. DO NOT DO THIS. Its not needed and using a caustic oxidizer on your fish can damage their gills and its knocks back your biological filter. I realize its out there and regular PP treatments are recommended by some, but healthy fish should not need them. And as a disease treatment, its not without risk,

al

[Iminit]

Were the first 15 in the tank for some time before they died? Did they all die around the same time or over a period of time? Did the next 8 all die at the same time?

[LizStreithorst]

It was chloramines that first came to my mind.

[discus2501]

PXL_20221225_123700284~6.jpg

This is their last pic before them being okay. After a week or so they started dying one by one. Sorry for the ugly tank and poor picture. But that's the last one I had.

PXL_20230106_164524730~2.jpg

This was the first one that died. I took a picture of its gills.

[discus2501]

They died over a period of time. All were headstanding close to the surface and breathing heavy. Each day 1 or 2 discus were dropping to the bottom and dying. The new ones were fine for a while but again went to the top and started dropping. I added the balloon rams with the new discus as a test. I know I shouldn't do it this way but I was desperate to find out what's wrong. Surprisingly, Balloon rams had no issues.

[discus2501]

I took some tap water and added sodium thiosulfate to test if ammonia is formed after chlorine is removed. I used the API ammonia test kit and it read 0 ppm. I don't know if it works this way or not. I may be completely dumb for trying to find out the presence of chloramines this way.

[discus2501]

Hi, Sorry to hear the issues here.. A couple of notes..

1) We need to see pics of the tank and fish

2) contact your water company and see if they add Chloramines or just Chlorine.. If they are all headstanding and dying, that sounds like chemical poisoning. though I would expect the The Rummynose Tetra and Balloon Rams to have died too.

3)You may be overfeeding the beefheart depending on how much you feed (3-6X a day) per feeding and with your water changes. You mentioned you are doing 50% daily "NOW" what were you typically doing before? Do you make this or buy it premade?

4) putting your new fish into a tank where your discus without knowing why they died is really not a good idea... its asking for a possible problem again

5) even though you didn't do this with both groups I still want to point it out.. DO NOT DO THIS. Its not needed and using a caustic oxidizer on your fish can damage their gills and its knocks back your biological filter. I realize its out there and regular PP treatments are recommended by some, but healthy fish should not need them. And as a disease treatment, its not without risk,

al

1) I have attached some pictures at the top. (Sorry, I wanted to post it as a reply but it became separate.)

2) Will do this soon

3) I used to feed them 6 times when they were small and I did water changes everyday. After they grew a bit, I fed 3 times in small amounts with a water change every other day. I tested the the water and it was okay. I make the beef heart myself. I just add spirulina powder and 1-2 cloves of garlic. Nothing else.

4) I agree...

5) Won't do it again.

[brewmaster15]

Hello,
I am really leaning towards your water being the culprit here. I'm looking at that tank and alls I see is small air driven sponge, and the flow out of it doesn't look good. Tell us about the filtration please. Inadequate filtration and bad water supply could be a cause here.

what country do you live in? Is there a way you can contact the water provider... you need to get a handle on your water.

al

[Tkuilderd]

PXL_20221225_123700284~6.jpg



This is their last pic before them being okay. After a week or so they started dying one by one. Sorry for the ugly tank and poor picture. But that's the last one I had.

PXL_20230106_164524730~2.jpg

This was the first one that died. I took a picture of its gills.

What i see in this photo are gills that have been reduced to a lump of tissue. This is not what gills should look like.
What i am thinking is that you have been given the impression that PP is safe for everyone to use and is safe to use on a weekly basis. It is not. If you do not understand what it is and what it does it is dangerous. Using it weekly in a normal dosage does damage over time. It was never intended to be used in this way regardless if what experienced breeders/importers may say. We breed discus and have never used it and never needed to, so why are other breeders using it? Maybe so they can slack on chores with no problems?
I do realize some use it around the 4week/30day mark to ensure there are no issues, we dont.
There are other, less dangerous medications that can be used in place of PP. I have no idea why it is being pushed on youtube and in the FB groups as it is.

Tammy

[Tkuilderd]

This is what a normal gill should look like.
images.jpg

[discus2501]

Hello,
I am really leaning towards your water being the culprit here. I'm looking at that tank and alls I see is small air driven sponge, and the flow out of it doesn't look good. Tell us about the filtration please. Inadequate filtration and bad water supply could be a cause here.

what country do you live in? Is there a way you can contact the water provider... you need to get a handle on your water.

al

Well, my only source of filtration is water changes. I slowed the water flow because a pair of blue diamonds was pairing up and was getting ready to spawn. They have spawned before when I reduced the water flow. So I did the same this time. I have another sponge filter on the other side and that's all I use.

I live in Bangladesh and I will try to see if I can contact with my water provider.

[jeep]

I agree on the use of PP, but I after the discussion in your first post last month I assume you've stopped using it?

I also agree that your water is probably the culprit at this point, although the overuse of PP may have contributed to your prior issues. Can you start aging your water in a hold barrel?

[brewmaster15]

Well, my only source of filtration is water changes. I slowed the water flow because a pair of blue diamonds was pairing up and was getting ready to spawn. They have spawned before when I reduced the water flow. So I did the same this time. I have another sponge filter on the other side and that's all I use.

I live in Bangladesh and I will try to see if I can contact with my water provider.

to Recap..

beefheart 3-6X times aday.
50 % water changes daily "now"
pH 7.4
8-15 discus that look to be 3-5 inches
2 small air driven sponges,

add to that questionable water supply.

There are alot of ways to keep discus, and some work better than others. I can make suggestions based on what I know works well for me and others , but it would mean you need to modify what you are doing. For instance theres nothing wrong with using sponges for filtration, but go bigger and add much more aeration. Beefheart is fine, but you needs to do more water changes it feeding it 6X aday ..its a messy food.

I also would take a closer look at your tank ammonia and Nitrites, with what you are feeding, the insufficient biological filtration and tank numbers, I would expect ammonia spikes and possible Nitrite spikes.

al

[Iminit]

Yes I don’t understand the use of pp. I have it and have never even attempted to use it. On Facebook its advertised like crazy.

2501 ok so the first group got the pp baths but second group didn’t. Could there be some sort of pp build up in the tank? Funny the rams aren’t dying. I can’t keep bubble rams alive more than a month and have had cardinals die that were perfectly healthy right after a water change. Nothing else was bothered but the cardinals.