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Thread: High pH, Low KH

  1. #1
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    Default High pH, Low KH

    Hello,

    I am researching discus and I am in the beginning phases of allocating a 55 gallon aquarium specifically for them. I'd like to buy a group of 5 wild caught greens at 4" in length, likely from Wattley Discus. These would be housed with 25 cardinal tetras in a bare bottom tank with driftwood and maybe a potted plant or two. I would also use pothos growing out of the top of the tank as a decoration / mild help with nitrate consumption.

    I have kept community aquariums, some dwarf cichlids, Malawi haps and peacocks, and Tanganyikan cichlids throughout my life. While I wouldn't consider myself an advanced aquarist I would consider myself proficient.

    My biggest challenge in considering discus, however, lies in the parameters of my tap water. Out of the tap my water measures as follows:

    pH: 8.9 initially, will settle to 8.7 after sitting for a couple days
    KH: 3°
    GH: 4°

    The low General Hardness does not concern me so we can take it off the table for this conversation unless anyone has thoughts on it.

    My specific challenge is not only the high value of my pH, but also the instability of my pH due to my low carbonate hardness.

    While cycling the 40 breeder Tanganyikan setup I have now, I observed that the addition of 2-4 ppm ammonia caused the pH to fall from 8.7 to 7.5. I wasn't really surprised given the low KH. I buffer the water with baking soda during weekly water changes to keep that pH stable at 8.2. It works well, but obviously with discus I want to keep the pH lower and stable.

    My intention is to use a Brute trash can as a water reservoir and use muriatic acid to lower the pH to somewhere in the range of 6.0 - 6.5. The final number will just be whatever number works best for an easy, consistent measurement of muriatic acid. I'll keep that water aerated and heated in the reservoir and perform one 50% water change per week on the 55. I saw this method on a video by Wattley Discus on YouTube.

    I'm just looking for a double check from you experienced folks to see if my planned method for lowering pH and keeping it stable has any major flaws.

    I appreciate all your time and advice.

    Thank you,

    Jacob

  2. #2
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    Hi Jacob,
    Using Muriatic acid has been done for a long time now but what happens often is the pH will bounce or crash and Discus really don't like that. I have used it in the past and its a real hassle and caustic chemicals are never fun. Most Discus Keepers eventually turn to an Ro water filter when their water is liquid rock. Which is what I would suggest to you. If you still have africans, you can use some of the waste water from the RO for that.

    You could also try mitigating your water by using a Peat filter on that Brute container. You honestly don't need to get down in the 6's.. mid to low 7s and wilds will adjust fine IME,

    hth,
    al

    ps... Welcome to SImplyDiscus!!
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    Muratic acid can be dangerous stuff, causing unpredictable and even lethal ph crashes once it interacts with the tanks bioload. I've seen it happen before and it's not pretty! I agree you would be much better off using RO and either reconstitute with the waste water or a mineral cocktail to achieve your desired stabile ph.

    Pat is good at working with wilds. Maybe she can assist with exact values.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    You should ask Gabe directly at Wattley.
    For water changes I age the water and add Seachem low pH buffer to 6.5.
    If you gradually make changes you can likely “get away” with your conditions.
    Personally, I don’t like to travel the road of “getting away” with my fish.
    Also, what are you using to test the water? Unusual set of readings.
    Check with your water company to check the values coming into your house.
    Just my opinion

  5. #5
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    Thanks a lot guys. I am with you; I don't really desire to handle muriatic acid. It also sounds like there could be some trial and error involved when it comes to exposing the "mixed water" to the tank's bioload. That's a risk I'd prefer to mitigate.

    The RO water route sounds like the safest bet for sure, but also the most expensive. I've been trying to read about it and get a rough idea on a specific unit worth considering, but am kind of drowning in the vast amount of choices out there on the market today.

    To answer some of your questions / points, captainandy:

    1. The video I watched on YouTube was an instructional presented by Gabe.
    2. I use API liquid test kits for all measurements. I've also double checked the pH using my Hanna battery powered pH meter.
    3. I have compared my results with my city's as well as surrounding city's reports. (we all feed out of Lake Superior) and have found my measurements to be consistent. Like you I also thought it was very strange initially.

    Also, captainandy, thank you for mentioning that you use the Seachem product.

    What are your guys' opinions on using these Seachem buffers to lower pH? I see they have a wide variety of them. The Discus Buffer or the Neutral Regulator look like applicable products for my strategy. Pricing it out, it also seems like an affordable alternative compared to jumping into an RO system right away, especially due to the small size of this 55 gallon tank.

    Curious to hear more about everyone's thoughts on Seachem buffers.

    Thanks to you all!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    Since your plan involves a 55 gal tank for these you will most likely need to be doing alot of water changes.. thats where a storage barrel of Ro aged and remineralized water id going to really help.

    Im not a fan of buffers and pH regulators... depending on your water they can also precipitate out minerals which can make your water cloudy and if bare bottom tank .. they can leave a film. i havent used these in many many moons... maybe those that do use them can give you more feedback.
    Al



    RO water units really arent that expensive.. for a 55 gal tank a 100 gallon per day unit is more than enough and you really dont need a de-i resin chamber on it for your needs.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    So if I were to go with RO unit I could expect water with the following parameters?:

    pH: 6.0 - 6.5 range
    KH: 0
    GH: 0

    Is that right?

    Then I'd need to increase the KH, probably somewhere between 4° and 8° to make it stable. Could I use baking soda for this (cheap) or will it increase the pH too much?

    I'm assuming I'd also need to increase the GH. To do this now in my Tanganyikan setup I use a manufactured product, Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt. I see that Seachem also makes an American Cichlid salt which offers more calcium, less magnesium, and more potassium and sodium. Looks like this would be a suitable product to increase GH up to 4° or so?


    The RO route just seems like a strange strategy to me. My GH is fine. My KH needs a little boost. And my pH needs lowered. But going the RO route causes me to lose my KH, lose my GH, and lower the pH. Then I have to add KH back and add GH back.

    I'm sure I'm missing something. Is removing KH necessary to lower pH in a controlled fashion? Maybe there is no way to lower pH in a controlled fashion without consuming all the buffer in the water?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    Jacob, can you do an experiment ? Take a 5 gal pail and fill it with water from your tap.. measure your water parameters. Then add an airstone and aerate 12 -24 hours.. retest parameters..


    Thanks ,
    Al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  9. #9
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    So I filled up the 55 on Saturday with straight tap water, no dechlorinator. It’s had the sponge filter running since Sunday and the pH is still at 8.7 today. I haven’t, tested KH or GH, but I can tomorrow if it’s relevant to your experiment.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    I can make this simple for you if the kH is the concern for you. Add some crushed coral to your filter... it will buffer your water fine. I honestly dont think your kH is an issue. Mine is 1-2. Far less than yours.. I use crushed coral on my grow out tanks to add minerals and buffer. . Most people here rely on water changes heavily.. if you are doing regular water changes your pH will not drop significantly , especially with tap water readings like yours..my aged tap water is about 7.6.

    If you want to try and lower your pH .. an Ro water filter is the safest way to do it. Yes it will remove alot of things but it gives you a flexible starting point. To lower your pH in your tank any other way means first removing the buffering capacity of your water either by using an acid or by using an aquarium product that precipitates it out.... or use a peat filter to lower the pH . Peat filters work but are not quick and need to be replaced often.

    Not sure if that helps ..my background is more biology than chemistry. FULL DISCLOSURE..I hate chemistry
    Al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-23-2023 at 12:09 AM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
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    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  11. #11
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    Yes, Al, that is very helpful actually. I had a hunch that it was necessary to remove KH to lower pH when I started reading about buffering agents precipitating those elements out of the solution.

    After a lot of thinking and reviewing everyone's helpful feedback. I determined the mystery or "problem" here had to be with myself. I'll save the long winded details, but I believe the biggest problem has been reliance on my battery powered pH meter. Today I discovered it appears to be out of calibration. I may also be moving it from one water source to another too quickly for this relatively simple, inexpensive instrument. I thought I had done sufficient double checks with the API Freshwater Master Test Kit as well as researching surrounding area water reports. It appears I did not.

    Today I have started with a 5 gallon bucket of tap water as you suggested, Al. I have installed an airstone.

    From here on out I will keep KH and GH constant for these discus water experiments, straight tap water only. I will test only after the water has aged 24 hours with an airstone as it would be in the aquarium. I will also test first with the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. I will likely look into a pH measurement instrument for each tank that provides constant feedback. Overkill perhaps, but it is clear that I have been going down many paths with inaccurate information so I think the overreaction is justified. I'll also test pH during the tank's cycle which I am planning to start this weekend.

    I sincerely apologize to you guys for the confusion.

    I'll keep this thread updated with new test results.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    Jacob, No apologies needed at all. Its important that you research this and ask before you have your discus. No one wants to read that post where someone new has sick or stressed fish. The forum exists primarily to help Discus keepers succeed.


    al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
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    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  13. #13
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    This morning I tested the 5 gallons of tap water after aerating for 24 hours. I did add dechlorinator to this water yesterday.

    Parameters are as follows:

    pH: 7.8 - 8.0 range, see photos below
    KH: 3
    GH: 4

    89F8F815-8A8D-4485-8FEF-A90F4A98D6CC.jpg

    B687C6AB-F8AD-4BCE-88B8-293B87E7EDB9.jpg

    I’m going to continue to keep an eye on the pH, especially when I get this cycle going.

    If nothing changes dramatically I am going to plan on using my tap water with no additives to house the fish.

    Again, big thanks to everyone. I will continue providing updates in my journal post.

    Jacob
    Last edited by jbacker7; 02-24-2023 at 11:22 AM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: High pH, Low KH

    Sound like a great plan Jacob!
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

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