Breeding discus with only 2 tanks ?

[Bart_NL]

I wonder if any of you have experience with breeding discus within the constraint of having only one breeding tank and one grow out tank ?

In our living room we have a 450 liter discus tank where a couple has formed that was laying eggs in this community tank.

The breeder where I got my discus somehow encouraged me to try and breed with this couple, and I had a spare 180 liter tank upstairs so that is how this started.

As soon as it became clear that the male was able to fertilize these eggs and the first batch of fry started to swim, this encouraged me to get an extra tank, this one 125 liter which I am currently cycling so I can move the parents to the smaller tank eventually. Dad decided to eat the first batch of fry when the female started laying more eggs, confusing, but this is a learning process for all of us I suppose.

Now a second batch has arrived and I have 6 fry swimming around, and in 3 weeks or so I will move their parents to the smaller tank to continue breeding there. Murphy's law says anything that can go wrong will go wrong but at some point I will have a bunch of juveniles in the grow out tank with the parents breeding out more in the breeding tank, I can imagine myself getting stuck when the time comes to move the second batch of juveniles to the grow out tank, which will most likely happen before I have sold or otherwise moved out the first batch.

Has anyone here been successful at breeding multiple batches of juveniles in one growing tank like this, I suppose I can use some tips on how to deal with:

1) Transition from re-mineralized RO water in the breeding tank to tap water in the grow out tank without having a third tank to manage this

2) Multiple generations sharing a grow out tank, should I use a divider to prevent competition & cannibalism ?

3) When and how to give the parents a break, should I separate them to stop the flow of eggs ? move them back to the main tank so they can socialize ?

Maybe there is no good way to deal with all this without getting a "rearing" tank, suggestions are very welcome because I have no room for another tank !

Kind regards from the Netherlands

Bart

[LizStreithorst]

You'll have your hands full raising a good size spawn with the tanks you already have. Put the pair. You could use one in between the 2 sizes of the existing ones, too. The parents need a break, and you need so see how things go with this batch of fry, first. If I were you, I would remove the eggs every time the pair laid for at the 4 week point, at least.

[jeep]

Two tanks may work if you only have 6 fry, but only for one generation. I have a pair that is producing around 120 fry at a time and I'm pretty much overwhelmed at this time. If you really want to breed them, you should have a plan in place that includes raising them to their potential and then finding a home for the extras down the road. The breeder you got yours from may be a good outlet for those...

[Bart_NL]

The breeding couple are still a bit young and dad decided to eat the six that were left over this time, the number of eggs they produced in their first attempts was no more than 50, but I get the picture, thanks for the quick replies, I suppose trying to handle multiple batches at once may be too optimistic even if I had an extra tank, I will meet the breeder this weekend, he just moved shop so i haven't met him for a while...

[Bart_NL]

update: It has been over a month, the female had not been eating for too long and I found white poo in the tank every day so my breeder friend advised me to treat them for bacterial and parasite infections. Metro is not allowed here in NL so they have been on a time-consuming treatment of first Octocil and then Bilocil (Manaus) after which they show all the signs of recovery and are at it again now.

I know I need to be patient but it seems to take forever with this couple and in the mean time in the big tank in my living room a second couple started producing eggs, this is a gorgeous couple of large leopard/snakeskin. Next week this whole tank is going on Bilocil and then I cannot help myself, I will have two breeding couples in two tanks, a competition !

I'll update this thread if a make any progress...

[Vanman]

We love pictures...........

[Bart_NL]

OK, update with picture on special request.

breeding.jpg

Three days ago I moved these beautiful jumbo's on the right from the community tank to this 180 liter tank, and they can't wait apparently I'll slowly start the transition to RO water tonight...

On the left, in a 125 liter tank this couple had four efforts and a octocil / bilocil treatment as they did not seem healthy enough, still no luck so after a few months I am considering moving them back to the community tank in the living room so they can socialize for a while with the other 6 discus I have.

[brewmaster15]

Bart, how did you use the octocil? How much ..how often?
Im not sure what the.ingredients are..the lusted ones are way too long a name to decipher..

Maybe try waterlife..octozin.. that is supposed to dimetronidazole and should work on intestinal flagellates

Screenshot_20230830_153401.jpg

[Bart_NL]

I used Octocil according to the manual of course, the Manaus medication was recommended to me by my breeder and Stendker used it, a lot of the medication (like metro) you guys in the US use is not on the market in Europe/NL, I think either because of growing resistance of bacteria and parasites against common antibiotics or because of people abusing them.

Without a serious diagnose I am not going to use more medicine on the red gold diamond female, also because she has been going through this for months now together with the Blue diamond male and he shows no sign of trouble, which probably means her condition is not contageous ? I think I should buy myself a microscope so I can examine the feces before making a decision.

I have started transitioning "team diamonds" back to tapwater though, they will get a second chance but a third couple has reported itself for breeding in my community tank, an eruption paired up with a red ghost,would that be a good combination ?

[brewmaster15]

Bart, you mentioned reaching out to your breeder. I am really interested in what they replief/advised.

Also

Without a serious diagnose I am not going to use more medicine on the red gold diamond female, also because she has been going through this for months now together with the Blue diamond male and he shows no sign of trouble, which probably means her condition is not contageous ? I think I should buy myself a microscope so I can examine the feces before making a decision.

Though its wise to want a better diagnosis..its not a good idea to think that the rgd female is not contagious...it could simply be the blue diamond male has a good immune system... I also would think about that microscope hard ..by itself, without training its of limited use to most people...

Back.to your medications.. using the medicine per the instructions doesnt necessarily mean it was used long enough or was even the right medicine. And just because so and so use and recommend a medication doesnt mean it will treat your fishes particular problem. Too often we see this.."well so and so did or does this and it works so I will use it." Its just not realistic.

[Bart_NL]

I send the breeder some pictures and he agrees with me it's most likely just stress being in this white breeding cubicle away from the community and agreed putting her back in the community take will probably do her good.. He offered me to take a look at her feces under a microscope some day but is all tied up with personal matters the coming week.

The octocil / bilocil treatments each took a week with a pause of a week in between, one thing that could have slipped through this medication would be capillaria but I don't see any of its symptoms other than this white poo. Her feces went back to normal for a few days after the bilocil treatment and i found what looked like a piece of dead ringworm in the water during the treatment.

Also i observe them well as their tank is sitting right next to my desk and i can see clearly that she doesn't feel comfortable in this tank, always lingering in a shadowy corner as if she is terrified by the light. Very unlike the other couple in the tank on the right, who just come to the glass to look at me and beg for food ;-)

[Bart_NL]

Brewmaster suggested I ask for advice here before putting this fish back in the community tank, see my other threads.

I have this adolescent Red gold diamond (female) who paired up with a blue diamond male laying eggs in my community tank, so I decided (with some help of their breeder) to try and breed discus.

From day one I moved them to the breeding tank the red diamond was producing white feces and not eating well, the blue one seemed to be doing just fine.
They spawned 3 batches of eggs with low survival rate because of clumsiness on my side and dad not doing his best to get the fry on to his back. As the white feces persisted and now the blue diamond also had it, I talked to the breeder who advised me to treat them for worms and other parasites, he suspected the problem was flagellates.

Now in the Netherlands common drugs as metro and other *zoles are not sold over the counter and my breeder suggested i use Manaus Octicil and Bilocil, so I did, first I treated them with octocil then after a one week break I treated them with bilocil. 6-7 days each.

Now during the bilocil treatment i think i found a fragment of dead ringworm in the water but it was too small and transparent to get a useful picture so i flushed it out. After the treatments the white poo was gone and both appeared to eat normally, but after about a week, the red diamond reverted back to her old behavior, she must eat something but i never see her do it, half of the poo is white and the other half from the blue diamond is not.

A strange thing is that after the medication the only food they appear to eat is dry food, by coincidence i discovered they like Dr. Bassleer and Dennerle granulate i had lying around, and the Stendker beefheart and Ruto artemia which used to be their staple food they totally ignore. They do make an exception for chopped mussels though, but i cannot give them that more than once week, right ?

They spawned one more batch of eggs and then nothing, i think it has been at least 3 or 4 weeks now. They have been in the breeding tank for 3.5 months and i have another pair spawning so I would like to put them back in the community tank. My breeder thinks it is just stress and agrees with the idea of giving them a break in the community tank so they can try again later.

I will fill in the questionnaire in a separate message here are two pictures, she looks healthy to me but they will not grow any further eating like this.

side.jpg

front.jpg

What would you advise me to do, maybe someone recognizes this ?

[Bart_NL]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...t=#post1376320

[Bart_NL]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

The problem started when I moved the couple to a bare-bottom, all-white breeding tank, from day one the Red gold diamond had white feces and does not eat well.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

White feces and not eating well.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Manaus Octocil and Bilocil, with a break of one week in between, as advised by their breeder.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

Age i estimate almost a year now, breeding couple in separate tank, 125 liter

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

30 % daily, RO water

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tank was clean and newly cycled, 3.5 months ago, Juwel Rio 125, 45cm deep

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

RO water aged for a day, pH steady at 7.0

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

None, tap water in the netherlands is not chlorinated, no chemicals are added to the water, ever.

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 28 celcius (pre heated in RO water storage tank)

- ph 7.0

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 0

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water 0%

- municipal water 0%

- RO water 100% (re-mineralized, EC = 100)


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

No, I have some artificial plants that are removed and cleaned as soon as any eggs hatched

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Normally they get Stendker Beefheart, Ruto artemia & bloodworms. Currently they only take dry food, Dr Basseleer, Dennerle Diskus soft. Chopped mussels they still enjoy.

12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

See previous post.

[brewmaster15]

Bart,
I've merged your threads as its easier when all info is in one spot.

Also i observe them well as their tank is sitting right next to my desk and i can see clearly that she doesn't feel comfortable in this tank, always lingering in a shadowy corner as if she is terrified by the light. Very unlike the other couple in the tank on the right, who just come to the glass to look at me and beg for food ;-)

The red diamonds symptoms are not from stress. ..they have been in that tank awhile. Both blue diamond and rgd had white feces..you treated and the blue diamond recovered to norm feces. The RGD did better then went back to having white feces. The behavior you are seeing in the rgd are very often seen in fish suffering from parasites..
I think its very likely from everything you posted that.the parasite issue was not dealt with yet in the rgd. .. if you put that fish back in the general population you risk spreading it and stressing that fish out more. I cant stress enough that this pair is still sick.. I would strongly advise trying to find a real pathologist or vet near you to work with. I also would suggest you research Cryptobia ... start here..
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/VM077


If the fish in your main tank are not sick it is never a good idea to add sick fish to it.