Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates

[Steve_Gurule]

I’ve been away from discus for awhile now, I needed a small break, that was over 10 years ago.
I was in a fish store yesterday, they had discus, dang I was doing so good. Now look where I’m at. I got my last shipment from Kenny, so sorry to hear about Kenny. They were beautiful healthy pigeon whites. I thought I had learned all I needed to know. I had my test kits, prime, water changes, they were pigs, growing super fast, eating constantly. Without warning nitrite poisoning took my best fish.
So I’ve been thinking over the years, what I need is a way to neutralize ammonia, make it non toxic but also non consumable, in other words, no usable ammonia = no nitrites = no nitrates
Prime doesn’t accomplish this. So, does anyone know if something could accomplish this?
Thanks, Steve G

[fljones3]

Sorry to hear this. Why do you think it was nitrite poisoning?
Some nitrates (5-10) indicates that you bio filters are working.

[Iminit]

So non consumable ammonia no nitrites no nitrates no bacteria no cycle. Sounds like a tough
chore!! Good luck!! I think your first thing is to get is waste free fish.

[Steve_Gurule]

It was the classic reaction to nitrite suffocation, swimming uncontrollably all around the tank, crashing into the glass, then…

[Steve_Gurule]

So non consumable ammonia no nitrites no nitrates no bacteria no cycle. Sounds like a tough
chore!! Good luck!! I think your first thing is to get is waste free fish.

You are almost spot on to what I’m thinking! On my next tank I’m going to only worry about ammonia which I will control with water changes, the nitrites and nitrates l will keep at zero by not allowing my tank to cycle. Why would I want them in my tank? Knowing what they can do.

[CliffsDiscus]

I have heard that nitrite hits the brain, thats when the Discus start spinning.

[brewmaster15]

You are almost spot on to what I’m thinking! On my next tank I’m going to only worry about ammonia which I will control with water changes, the nitrites and nitrates l will keep at zero by not allowing my tank to cycle. Why would I want them in my tank? Knowing what they can do.

I think thats probably not going to work . The problem you had was your biofilter was not functioning right. In a working biofilter.. the ammonia is converted by bacteria to nitrite..which is broken down by different bacteria to less toxic nitrate. .. these nitrates are able to be removed by plants,special nitrate filters and water changes. The system that converts ammonia to nitrite to nitrate is a perfect system fish evolved with. If your fish died from nitrites something was wrong in your biological filtration.
The only way you can really bypass this is huge frequent water changes... or possible lots of zeolite thats removed regularly and replaced. You need to remember fish are continually excreting ammonia from their gills... and thats going to start feeding bacteria that will create nitrites..with no established biofilter you risk spikes that will harm or kill your fish.

Hth,
Al

Honestly though I think if you want to succeed with discus its far easier to use a fully functioning biological filter.

[Steve_Gurule]

Thanks for the reply, I get what you’re saying, I would only do this during the grow out stage for maximum growth.

[brewmaster15]

Thanks for the reply, I get what you’re saying, I would only do this during the grow out stage for maximum growth.

Steve,
How many times a day do you plan on feeding during the growing of these fish and what kinds of food? The other question that comes to mind is how much water can you store and age? Or are you able to use direct tap water with no stress to the fish where you are?
Al

[LizStreithorst]

Steve, the big breeders in Asia don't use filters at all. The only way to make this work though, it to do do a flopping on the bottom WC twice daily. They can do it because their labor is cheap and they work their helpers hard, plus their water is either dirt cheap or free. It's not practical here in the States, so we use filtration as well as daily WC's. What seems to have happened with your batch from Kenny is that you must not have done enough WC to keep the nitrogen cycle working as it should.

[Iminit]

I find it hard that nitrite killed your earlier fish. Nitrite is the after product of ammonia. So your ammonia must have been high for awhile for nitrite to build up. Plus it was an established tank so the cycle must have been working. Bacteria eating the ammonia. So to have any build up could only come from lack of maintenance. How high were your nitrites when your fish started dying? How long did you have them. Once a tank is cycled and then maintained these problems don’t happen. There are other things that could have caused this.

[Steve_Gurule]

Steve,
How many times a day do you plan on feeding during the growing of these fish and what kinds of food? The other question that comes to mind is how much water can you store and age? Or are you able to use direct tap water with no stress to the fish where you are?
Al

My tap water is pretty much perfect and I don’t notice a spike in my water bill, of coarse that was 10 years ago, I have never tried to breed but I have had pairs lay eggs in my community tank. I use a 55 gallon tank. Once a day I siphon about 95% to where the fish lay flat on the bottom then I use direct tap water to fill the tank adding a chlorine neutralizer. The fish are very comfortable with this. My goal is to raise big 6 1/2 plus fish. Stunted fish do nothing for me. I have visited Kacy a few times and I have bought his beautiful fish. I can’t get them as big as he does. I wonder if Kacy is still around, I haven’t seen him in years and I don’t have his phone number anymore. He was a popular poster here.
I admit I was over feeding them but to get them to the size I wanted you pretty much have to power feed them, I thought my water changes were good enough. At 6 months old they were already 5 inches. I have been thinking about this for 10 years, I’m just about ready to retire and I’m ready to try this.

[Steve_Gurule]

I find it hard that nitrite killed your earlier fish. Nitrite is the after product of ammonia. So your ammonia must have been high for awhile for nitrite to build up. Plus it was an established tank so the cycle must have been working. Bacteria eating the ammonia. So to have any build up could only come from lack of maintenance. How high were your nitrites when your fish started dying? How long did you have them. Once a tank is cycled and then maintained these problems don’t happen. There are other things that could have caused this.

I admit it was totally my fault, I was power feeding them for maximum growth. What I didn’t realize was that even in the smallest amount nitrites are absorbed into the bloodstream restricting the ability for the blood to absorb oxygen until the fish basically suffocates. To prevent this you have to have your filtration cycle working at
100% so no power feeding and no extra large fish, oh and this doesn’t even take into account that nitrates that stunt their growth

[LizStreithorst]

Discus don't take to a lot of tap water as well as Discus do. Have you tested to see if you have a pH swing? You need to before you decide to continue doing it your way. It's an easy test to do. Just take a bucket, fill it with tap water and put in a bubbler. Test the pH of the water in the bucket to gas off for 12 hours. Then put a cup of water from your tap water. Tell us how much of swing there is between the 2.

But to answer your origional question, I know of know product that negates ammonia, nitrates and nitrates.

[CliffsDiscus]

My tap water is pretty much perfect and I don’t notice a spike in my water bill, of coarse that was 10 years ago, I have never tried to breed but I have had pairs lay eggs in my community tank. I use a 55 gallon tank. Once a day I siphon about 95% to where the fish lay flat on the bottom then I use direct tap water to fill the tank adding a chlorine neutralizer. The fish are very comfortable with this. My goal is to raise big 6 1/2 plus fish. Stunted fish do nothing for me. I have visited Kacy a few times and I have bought his beautiful fish. I can’t get them as big as he does. I wonder if Kacy is still around, I haven’t seen him in years and I don’t have his phone number anymore. He was a popular poster here.
I admit I was over feeding them but to get them to the size I wanted you pretty much have to power feed them, I thought my water changes were good enough. At 6 months old they were already 5 inches. I have been thinking about this for 10 years, I’m just about ready to retire and I’m ready to try this.

Steve, Do you mean Kacey? I don't think that's his real name, he was breeding the spotted awhile back. I think he is or was around the Seattle area.