Any help appreciated

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
-there appears to be some sunken belly and some face discoloration in my potential breeding female.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
-clamped fins, dark colorations where white isn’t present, was eating medicated foods 2 days ago but has stopped, she’s always been a heavy breather since I’ve had her but never presented any of these other symptoms, she has cloudy eyes and stringy white excrement with a new presentation of sunken belly as of this morning.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
-been dosing 1 scoop of focus, sulfaplex and metroplex in their food every feeding (2x a day). I plan on continuing this treatment for 14 days total. After the 14 day period is up I plan on using one of my tanks as a quarantine tank before putting them into their new 75 gallon home. This will allow me to monitor the fish before I put them in the new tank and determine who has to stay behind for further treatment.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
-45 gallon , approximately 1 year, 2 months old, 9 fish total between 2 Corys, 2 angelfish and 5 discus . Every discus is between 4-5” except for a new addition that is 3”.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
-every other day. It’s an overstocked tank so I have to keep up on it.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
-tank has been running for the whole time it’s been up. I have a 3” gravel bed with 2 planted plants and 3 floating plants.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
-unable to age my water currently but am planning on getting a barrel soon.


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
I use Seachem prime and stability. A capful of each usually.

9. Parameters and water source;
70 ppm , 7.8 ph
Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp __85.5 F___

- ph ___8.4__

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading _10-20___

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __xxx__

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
Yes I added two fish while my breeding pair was out, one of them had a disease and I didn’t follow proper quarantine protocol. Since then the newly added diseased fish has passed and I am left with one healthy small discus with my grouping.

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
-San fransisco bay brand frozen blood worms (2 cubes per meal) and the occasional frozen beef heart from San fransisco bay brand as well. I try to mix in hikari vibra bites, top fin tropical flakes and omega ones frozen bloodworms but they protest the dry food now so they’ve been getting the frozen stuff mostly. They get fed twice a day. Once at 730 am and again at 530 pm. Water changes happen an hour after they eat.


12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
IMG_2506.jpg
IMG_2504.jpg

If you think I missed any crucial pieces of information please go check out my log on “our tank journals” entitled “Dream in the works”

[brewmaster15]

Kyle,
Is there a reason you are doing like this?

been dosing 1 scoop of focus, sulfaplex and metroplex in their food every feeding (2x a day)

?


Did that facial discoloration start after dosing ..if not how long has it been an issue?

Al

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

Sorry for clarification:
The discoloration in the face was present prior to dosing the medications. Since dosing the picture above is an improvement over what it was prior to dosing.

The reason I’m doing these doses is because I’ve read that sulfaplex and metroplex can be used safely together and focus (I’ve read/seen!) binds the medication to the food better. Since they were all eating it seemed like the best option to attack any viruses at the source.

I also have some polyguard on deck but I don’t want to use that unless someone says “are you silly ? use it!”

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

And as a note: prior to treating the tank she was spending ample time away from the school in the upper right hand side of the tank. (Opposite of the filter input/output) . As of yesterday she is spending time with the school and aware of the exterior of the tank.

[brewmaster15]

Most of what I have read indicates that the main ingredient of sulfaplex(sulfathiazole) can be toxic if fish ingested. Its actually well absorbed by the gills. Its also really not a great way to dose meds by the scoop .. you can overdose or underdose easily.

First I would stop with the medicated feed.. and binder(focus by seachem).. if you are binding the meds to the food and they arent eating well you are not getting meds into the sick fish.. switch to just tank dosing of the meds..both metro and sulfaplex are absorbed by the gills.

You need to recheck your parameters too Kyle.. its rarely the case when antibiotics are used that ammonia and nitrites are zero.

Change water more..I would suggest daily large water changes.. by large.. at least 50%-75% or more.. then dose meds

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

Excellent ; so I’m essentially hurting the fish more than helping by feeding it to them.

I will stop feeding the medicine and pick up the treatment as a water focused attack now.

As for the parameters I check after every water change lately to ensure I’ve knocked everything down to where I like it. So my readings are with brand new water in the tank.

If you are checking before a usual 60-70% water change then yeah, I’d expect the levels to be up.

I will have to take readings prior to water changes from now on. I apologize.

Thanks for the advice as always

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

Also: If I am not dosing by the scoop what should I be dosing by ? Mg? And if so what scale would you recommend for dosing. As in what ratios would you recommend (xx/gallon) ? I’m trying my best here and it breaks my heart to know I’ve been doing more harm than good. I guess this is one of those things that comes with years experience.

[brewmaster15]

As for the parameters I check after every water change lately to ensure I’ve knocked everything down to where I like it. So my readings are with brand new water in the tank.

Kyle you need to take your reading before a wc.. otherwise you dont know if your biofilter is. Working .. if you go with every other day water changes as you have been.. theres a huge window where an impaired biofilter could be a factor in the health of the fish by exposing them to ammonia and nitrites.

[brewmaster15]

Also: If I am not dosing by the scoop what should I be dosing by ? Mg? And if so what scale would you recommend for dosing. As in what ratios would you recommend (xx/gallon) ? I’m trying my best here and it breaks my heart to know I’ve been doing more harm than good. I guess this is one of those things that comes with years experience.

For the sulfaplex.. follow seachems directions if they included a scooper but remember a scoop is generally a level measurement not patted down... not heaping.

For a scale.. Amazon sells digital gram scales for about. 10.00. I bought one years ago thats not made anymore but you dont need anything fancy..just accurate. Maybe someone else can post a link to what they use.


For metro.. metroplex is cut not pure. If pure A good dose for pure metro is 250mg -500 mgs per 10 gals. Dose daily for 10 days minimum. If you want the pure meds.. try jehmco.com

Al

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

Now that it’s written like that in front of my face that makes sense.

I got comfortable with a water change schedule based on a couple of months with the new bio load(added fish from when immature breeding pair was in breeding tank). I should have and will start checking parameters on the off days with water circulated in the tank.

That of course will be after this round of meds with now daily water changes of 60-70%. I’m not sure testing the water at all during this type of treatment will bear any information other than the parameters of the water coming from the tap with chlorine treatment but if I should I will.

Thank you again

[brewmaster15]

You are welcome.

I’m not sure testing the water at all during this type of treatment will bear any information other than the parameters of the water coming from the tap with chlorine treatment but if I should I will.

it can. It can also tell you if the amount of water changed is adequate for your biofilters impairment. It can save your fish by telling you if you have a nitrite spike .. salt or methylene blue can counter nitrite poisoning but you need to know if its happening.. its a good thing to monitor when treating with meds

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

As suggested I am treating the water now and not medicating the food. It’s now the end of day two and I’ve taken my readings prior to the water change: my results are pictured below. I’m not sure what’s wrong with the tank if it’s to do with the medications in the water now or what but my levels are crazy at the moment. Any idea of what is causing these levels ? Do I need to clean out the canister filter ? Move them all into a tank where the water parameters are better?

For now I’m going to keep them in the tank they are and treating the water as per the instructions on the bottles and what I’ve learned here. I also am trying to neutralize the ammonia with SeaChem’s AmGuard unless that is not a wise choice.

This is day one:
IMG_2510.jpg

This is day two:
IMG_2517.jpg

This is to show I’m getting the tank down to about 30-40% with everyone grouping behind my Mobile planter.
IMG_2512.jpg

[brewmaster15]

Kyle, I believe that your values posted now are probably what you had all along ..Its just gottemore pronounced now that you are measuring before a water change and are dosing antibiotics. That ammonia spike is from the medications you were feeding the fish and the uneaten food/fish waste coupled with inadequate water changes. I think your best bet it to do more water changes, Are you doing daily water changes? You can take the water much lower if the ammonia gets higher.

You may also see a nitrite spike. ..if you do, you can use salt to detox that at 1-3 tablespoon per 10 gal water

al

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

Kyle, I believe that your values posted now are probably what you had all along ..Its just gottemore pronounced now that you are measuring before a water change and are dosing antibiotics. That ammonia spike is from the medications you were feeding the fish and the uneaten food/fish waste coupled with inadequate water changes. I think your best bet it to do more water changes, Are you doing daily water changes? You can take the water much lower if the ammonia gets higher.

You may also see a nitrite spike. ..if you do, you can use salt to detox that at 1-3 tablespoon per 10 gal water

al

I have done a water change to the level pictured above for 2-3 days in a row now. I was doing one every other day but after being educated more here I have been doing water changes daily. I plan to continue this for at least 11 more days.

When you say I can take the water lower what is the lowest you would go? At this point if it helps these guys I’ll do just about anything and if a 90% water change is a good starting point then I will do so with gusto.

Thanks again for helping out a novice like myself.

[brewmaster15]

How are the discus after the water change? Are they stressed?