What foods to avoid?

[Raul-7]

I'm trying to weed through high and low quality foods. This will be strictly frozen or freeze-dried, no live.


I know Tubifex are terrible, but what else should I avoid? Daphnia? Bloodworms?

[seanyuki]

I only use Hikari frozen bloodworms, also freeze dried bloodworms are high in protein.From what I have read, Bloodworms…..Chironomidae larvae and pupae are highly nutritious and nourishing and constitute one of the staple food items of many fishes in their natural environment. They are a commonly used live or frozen food source for aquarium fish culture. Almost all fishes will greedily devour them when they are offered. Research has found that most fishes when provided with bloodworms as a supplementary food item have better growth and spawning rates. Their nutritional value is considered very good. Chemical analysis shows that bloodworms contain 9.3% dry matter and of this there is 62.5% crude protein, 10.4% crude fat and 11.6% ash with 15.4% nitrogen free extract. They are also a good source of iron for the fish since they contain haemoglobin.

[brewmaster15]

Bloodworms are not a bad food nutritionally but they are not farmed. They are collected and that can lead to issues depending on where they are collected..parasites and bacterial contaminants. Many many hatcheries and hobbyists rely on these. If you choose that food go with the best to minimize problems...Hikari is a top brand and your safest bet..However, watch out for allergies..up to 30% of hobbyists have bloodworm allergies..and they did not start with them. These allergies can kill you worst case or make you miserably itchy best case. I cant touch them anymore..hives, swollen eyes, asthma.. I get nasty reactions from them now and didnt when I started.

Tubifex is also collected and from heavy metal ladden polluted water.I do not trust them.

Im not a fan of tetrabits as a main food.. that red in them is a known hormone mimic. Its probably okay as part of their diet but I would not feed it as a main food. The other problem with them is they can cause some discus to bloat if they are a pig. DISCUS do like these crumbles and they are a popular cheap food.


Live mosquitoes.. parasite vector and I hate when a food Im culturing bites me.

Al

[Raul-7]

What about Mysis, Calanus, and Brine Shrimp?

[brewmaster15]

Brine is ok..not as nutritious as other options

Mysis is great if you can get your fish to eat them..Not all discus will. I used to feed alot of PE mysis.
Article on Mysis..
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...light=Pe+mysis


Calanis are a little small for discus.. but could be a good fry food...Ive never fed them. I know they are used in reef tanks.

[Raul-7]

What high-quality dry foods like New Life Spectrum?

[brady]

To avoid any potential problems I feed only 3 dry foods. Al's fdbw, Ocean nutrition flakes and "that fish guys" pellets which were recommended
by Liz.
Jay

[dwilder]

I use three different dry foods that my Discus really like . Sera Discus Nature, the Growth and the Color version, Hikari Discus Bio-Gold ,and Omega One Color Pellets.

[Raul-7]

I was researching a lot of the popular Discus dry foods and a lot of them contain fillers that do NOT belong in a Discus diet [like corn, soy, wheat, etc.] I know some are needed as a binding agent, but they should be one of the latter ingredients or at most only 1 of the ingredients be wheat, yeast, etc. within the first 5 ingredients.



Sera Discus Nature-
Fish meal, wheat flour, wheat germ, brewers yeast, Ca-caseinate, krill (4%), wheat gluten, fish oil (containing 49% omega fatty acids), gammarus, Haematococcus algae, mannan oligosaccharides, green-lipped mussel, stinging nettle, herbs, alfalfa, parsley, garlic, sea algae, paprika, spirulina, spinach, carrots.


Tetra Color Granules-
Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Germ Meal, Wheat Flour, Corn Gluten, Feeding Oat Meal, Potato Protein, Shrimp Meal, Dried Yeast, Wheat Gluten, Mono-Basic Calcium Phosphate, L-Lysine Monohydrochloride, Lecithin, Algae Meal, Soybean Oil, Yeast Extract, Ascorbic Acid, Inositol, Niacin, A-Tocopherol Acetate, Riboflavin 5 Phosphate, L-Ascorbic 2 Phosphate, Choline Chloride, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Palmitate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Cyanocobalamin, Cholecalciferol, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Cobalt Nitrate

Seachem NutriDiet Discus Flakes-
Whole Fish Meal (Brevoortia tyrranus), Wheat Flour, Squid Meal (Dosidicus gigas), Wheat Gluten, Soy Protein Concentrate, Grain Distillers Dried Yeast, Wheat Middlings, Astaxanthin, Fish Oil, Soy Lecithin


Discus Bio-Gold-
Krill meal, whole crushed silkworm pupae, fish meal, cuttlefish meal, dried seaweed meal, brewers dried yeast, potato starch, spirulina, carotene, lecithin, DL-methionine, astaxanthin, garlic, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, silicon dioxide, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, red 3 (artificial color).

The first 5 are all natural sources which is great, my only concern is with Red artifical dye. That is toxic.

[Raul-7]

Meanwhile New Life Spectrum recently released their Naturox formula; which a lot healthier and more natural than their previous formulations.


Discus Formula-
Whole Antarctic Krill**, Giant Squid*, Whole Wheat Flour, Whole Menhaden Fish*, Omega-3 Fish Oil*, Garlic, Ulva Seaweed, Chlorella Seaweed, Wakame Seaweed, Kelp, Ginger, Astaxanthin, Spirulina, Marigold, Zeaxanthin, Capsanthin, Eucheuma cottonii Seaweed, Chondrus crispus Seaweed, Spinosum Seaweed, Bentonite Clay, Sea Salt

Cichlid Formula-
Whole Antarctic Krill**, Giant Squid*, Whole Wheat Flour, Whole Menhaden Fish*, Ulva Seaweed, Chlorella Seaweed, Wakame Seaweed, Kelp, Garlic, Ginger, Astaxanthin, Spirulina, Omega-3 Fish Oil*, Marigold, Zeaxanthin, Capsanthin, Eucheuma cottonii Seaweed, Chondrus crispus Seaweed, Spinosum Seaweed, Bentonite Clay, Sea Salt


Only 1 bad ingredient. No artificial dyes, soy, etc.

[brewmaster15]

Raul,
Brewers yeast is used in many animal feeds as a source of vitamins....its a particularly good source of vitamin b complex and proteins.


What do you think of when you think of natural and appropriate discus diet?
Al

Ps . As an add on.. a study was done on soy proteins that Showed up to 30 % soy as a protein source did not adversely affect discus growth and development. Im paraphrasing and quoting from memory.. if you search the net for soy protein a d discus..

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...lacement_study

Its a goldmine of info as we never see studies specific to discus and diet.

Al

[Raul-7]

I made a mistake on brewer's yeast; it is healthy. But corn, soy and wheat are to be avoided as much as possible. Especially where multiple fillers are used in the first 5 ingredients [which make up the bulk by default] like Sera Discus Nature.

Like with humans you will find studies that say it's good and others that say it's terrible, fact is it is a phytoestrogen. Hence avoid it.

From the study- Amino-acid analysis indicated methionine and lysine deficiencies at dietary high soybean replacement levels, although the essential amino-acid requirements for this species are unknown. The level of soybean in diets negatively affected both dry matter and protein digestibility.


Discus are by nature omnivores from the literature I've read. So a mix of protein [both animal and plant] is best.

[brewmaster15]

From the study- Amino-acid analysis indicated methionine and lysine deficiencies at dietary high soybean replacement levels, although the essential amino-acid requirements for this species are unknown. The level of soybean in diets negatively affected both dry matter and protein digestibility.

Yes, Actually though that wasnt the point of the study..its academic but the point I believe was to see how much soy could be used as a protein alternative.. the answer was 30 %. The L- methionine and lysine deficiencies are something that a feed mfg would have to work out. Why is that important? simply because when a manufacturer uses all the top notch ingredients its expensive and removes those ingredients from use by other industries. Whole fish , squid, krill looks great on an ingredient list but if you can formulate a feed that has less environmental impact and is cost effective yet works the same. Its a win. Its been done extensively with fish diets in aquaculture for human consumption species.

Im not saying fillers and soy are good.. quality protein is key to good growth and development. However as you said Discus are thought to be omnivores. So should be able to utilize a variety of foods containing plant matter provided their protein needs are met. I'm just taking the opposing point to make this discussion more interesting
Looking at the label is fine as is setting the bar high nutritionally but theres also another factor..palatability. it can be the most nutritionally balanced and healthy food but if the animal won't eat it.. forget about it. NLS is such a food. For some reason its not well accepted by discus. Its been brought up over the years here on the forum.

[Raul-7]

Im not saying fillers and soy are good.. quality protein is key to good growth and development. However as you said Discus are thought to be omnivores. So should be able to utilize a variety of foods containing plant matter provided their protein needs are met. I'm just taking the opposing point to make this discussion more interesting
Looking at the label is fine as is setting the bar high nutritionally but theres also another factor..palatability. it can be the most nutritionally balanced and healthy food but if the animal won't eat it.. forget about it. NLS is such a food. For some reason its not well accepted by discus. Its been brought up over the years here on the forum.

No offense taken, I love a good discussion. Everyone learns.

But if they substitute expensive, quality ingredients with low quality ones - is that really a win? I mean, like with any organism, diet is the key to health. So if a higher quality and more expensive diet leads to healthier fish; then that to me sounds better than taking a risk with the lower quality diets.

Could it be that once accustomed to low quality food it becomes more difficult for them to accept the healthier alternative?

I've had the same issue with my cats, it was hard to transition them to a wet and raw diet once they were used to a dry diet. But that's because the dry diets are filled with carbs, but eventually I got them onto a wet/raw diet and they are much healthier and happier.



That's why when analyzing foods I'm going keep the bulk of their diet freeze-dried and frozen. Most of them are single-ingredient and a lot less fillers.

[Adamski77]

My limited experience… and I feed Hikari frozen food only… daphnia, mysis shrimp, tubifex… all bad… just too small. I keep my discus on brine shrimps, blood worms, krill and white worms. The one I’m trying to feed them only occasionally (before Saturday water change) is beef heart… makes a mess on my anubias that is growing on the feeding place. (Mistake I’ve made when planting the tank)