Dewormer discussion

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
I thought I would start a thread here on an important topic.Dewormers.. particularly a class of them thats related but as far as discus go, very different.

A very strong and effective pet dewormer on the Market called Fenbendazole..aka panacur is often recommended for deworming fish. It is used in cats and dogs often as a dewormer.Its very good as a dewormer mixed in the food of the fish. There are chemically related versions of this drug out there that have a similar response... flubendazole is the most well known.

So which is better for use on discus? If they are used in the fishes food they are probably similar in effectiveness... for some reason fenbendazole is more common here in North America where as Europe and Asia seem to use flubendazole more. Its much harder to find Flubendazole here in the USA than it used to be 15-20 years ago.

What about using Fenbendazole or Flubendazole in the water as a bath for deworming? Thats where it gets tricky . My personal experiences are Fenbendazole use in the water can lead to tail and headstanding and fin burns in Discus. Other members over the years have reported similar. FLUBENDAZOLE appears to be safer to use in the water as a bath as far as Discus go. Incidentally I have noted the same with angelfish. But, and theres a big but here as we also have multiple confirmed cases of this same tail and headstanding and fin burns happening with discus treated with flubendazole. So much so that we have a thread on the forum...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...le-side-effect

Because of the possibility of side effects there was a shift towards Levamisole as a dewormer of choice for discus over the last decade. Levamisole is a different class of dewormers. It is safer to use when used in its therapeutic range of 2-4 ppm as a bath.It can also be used in the food. Discus can tolerate it up to about 6 ppm. After that it starts to stress them out. Some fish species seem to tolerate it higher but again we have multiple reports of discus head and tail standing in some cases when its used at higher concentrations. I would advise not going above 6 ppm with discus. My range of use has always been 2-4 ppm. Please note that there are hobbyists that used this medication at 11-13 ppm as sellers advised and their discus did not do well, exhibiting headstanding/tailstanding and in some cases death. I can not strongly enough advise discus keepers to not dose higher than 6 ppm Levamisole as a bath.


What about Praziquantel? Its an excellent dewormer for tapeworms.Treated fish will pass any tapeworms within a day of treatment. Its also useful for gill flukes except where drug resistence has occurred. Its reportedly effective against capillaria worms and has found its way more recently into many commercial fish dewormers (Example :hikari prazi-pro and API General Cure) It is not by most accounts anywhere as broad spectrum as Fenbendazole,Flubendazole, or Levamisol.

So why bring this up? I have noticed in my recent research on dewormers that alot of websites are now recommending using FENBENDAZOLE as bath. These are not necessarily discus websites that I know of but they are across many groups including marine fish keepers. Some sites do have discus keepers there. There is also speculation that drug resistence is occurring towards levamisole. I take these speculations with a grain of salt as its hard to prove.... but it is always possible and recently I have been in communication with a discus keeper experiencing what sounds like a resistent strain of Capillaria.

Given the reports we have on the forum and my own experiences I would strongly advise discus keepers to not use FENBENDAZOLE added to the water as a bath despite what you may read on other websites. There maybe a pH or water hardness factor that affects its absorption and safety. Only use it in food mixes. FLUBENDAZOLE appears to have a much safer margin of use with Discus .Even so I would suggest using it at half strength initially and watch for stress. These wormers may persist in the water so large water changes are important when using them.

Personally I do not trust FENBENDAZOLE as a water bath for discus. I have experienced tail and head standing, fin burns and loss of appetite with it in both Discus and angelfish. I have experienced discus and angelfish death after using it. I have used it in food without issue many times and it used to be my go to before LEVAMISOLE. I would be comfortable using FLUBENDAZOLE as a bath but as noted..cautiously.

I believe a good strategy for deworming discus is to use Praziquantel first for its excellent tapeworm efficacy, then followup with Levamisole for its general broad range deworming or use Flubendazole for its broad range efficacy.


If using these medications always start with clean water and becareful to follow directions carefully. Research very carefully as well and watch your source of product. If you buy it bulk buy these medications from reputable sources. I do not doubt for a minute that some sellers would substitute Fenbendazole for Flubendazole due to availability and price..

If any one uses any of these dewormers or others and experiences negative side effects I would ask you share them here. Include all the information as to dose and duration as well as your water parameters . May help pinpoint ranges of safe use.

Al

DISCLAIMER.. USE ANY DEWORMERS AT YOUR OWN RISK... THESE ARE MY OPINIONS AND OBSERVATIONS , NOTHING MORE.

[brewmaster15]

Ok. Just so my "Discussion on Dewormers" doesnt have to have its titled changed to "Monologue on Dewormers"

What dewormers have you all used and how did you use them?


As an ice breaker .. Have you seen this tapeworm article?

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/...apeworms.shtml

It demonstrates just how effective Praziquantel is on Tapeworms

Al

[Charlyc11]

I been using WORMER X (Levamisole) and FLUKE X (Praziquantel) for tape worms and Flukes. Also recently tried PraziPro from Hikari. I use these for the QT procedure.

So you don't feel alone.

[Iminit]

I’ve used prazi-pro but never seen any expelled worms.
Do fry need to be dewormed? Even though they’ve only been in a tank by themselves?
And last since it’s about worms. Yesterday I cleaned out my hillstream loach/cherry shrimp tank. Because I always end up removing shrimp I do this into 5g buckets. Then spill water slowly into slop sink to check for shrimp. So along with the 30+ shrimp I removed I found this worm or whatever.AF9D79BB-1150-41BF-A1DD-73BEC138480F.jpg0724607E-9136-451A-8AE9-9F7779E88977.jpg. So what do you think this is? It’s over 3” long.

[brewmaster15]

Tom,
I would not deworm the fry at this point, especially if the adults were dewormed. If the adults were not dewormed than at some point the fry may benefit from it.

i have no clue what that is Tom.. It could be a harmless detritus feeder. I would suggest deworming that thank just in case but I am not sure if the hillstream loaches would die from deworming.Sorry/


al

[seanyuki]

Just curious Al, does flubendazole treats gill flukes? the package says so but could not find it in Google scholar research papers.


IMG_4641.jpg

[brewmaster15]

Hi Francis,
Flubendazole should be a good treatment for gill flukes.. there was a time a while back that was one of my favorite meds for flukes. I always found it very effective. JEHMCO used to sell it. I dont know of any studies specifically using it but it was very popular for a time . Probably because Dieter Untergasser wrote about it in his book and he indicated that it not only kills flukes but their eggs.

Screen shot from an old thread here..
Screenshot_20231017_201942.jpg

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...le++fluke+eggs

It went out of favor a bit here in North America but I think its always been well thought of in Europe.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...le-side-effect

https://www.fishbase.se/diseases/dis...ld%20be%20made.



Alot of our medications are very extra label meaning they arent directly approved or tested for their use..

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...11320714000153

so we draw from other information for instance .. this article on liver flukes..

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...04401709003069

[seanyuki]

Thanks Al for your quick response.

[brewmaster15]

[bluelagoon]

I’ve used prazi-pro but never seen any expelled worms.
Do fry need to be dewormed? Even though they’ve only been in a tank by themselves?
And last since it’s about worms. Yesterday I cleaned out my hillstream loach/cherry shrimp tank. Because I always end up removing shrimp I do this into 5g buckets. Then spill water slowly into slop sink to check for shrimp. So along with the 30+ shrimp I removed I found this worm or whatever.AF9D79BB-1150-41BF-A1DD-73BEC138480F.jpg0724607E-9136-451A-8AE9-9F7779E88977.jpg. So what do you think this is? It’s over 3” long.

Those are not parasitic to fish. They are debris worms feeding on bacteria and other matter in the substrate. Are harmless to fish. They are a few different species. You may have introduced them when using blood worms, black worms or tubifex worms is the likely cause. Some fish like geophagus and other earth eaters would love those.