Making Mistakes - 55g planted tank (mis)adventure

[ravvlet]

Hello, it’s me again. I did watch the discus lecture for beginners and realized I’m ALREADY knee deep in mistakes! Ah, how frustrating. I had really hoped to have a much more positive start to my very first time keeping and/or growing out discus, but here we are.

I hope it’s ok to keep a record here anyway. I hope to turn into one of those folks who ends up with a 125g of happy discus someday. We all start somewhere, right?

Also, howdy, any fellow Seattleites out there! Just wrapped up a real blue ribbon weekend at the GSAS auction! Got lots of shrimp for great prices as well as more jungle Val than I could reasonably shake a stick at. The tank has been up and running for a week now, so I guess I’ll talk about that first.

Filtration: starting off weak with a used Topfin Silentstream 75, which is honestly a piece of junk, but it fits filter media from my established Fluval canister on m other tank. For the time being it’s on max flow to get the (bacterial) juices going. I can turn it down later on. In addition to this, I’m running a XL Sponge filter with airstone from Aquarium Co-Op. I love this guy. Never used a sponge filter before and I feel like I’ve really been sleeping on them - they seem great. Still don’t trust them enough to go with them solo; and I do hate how much tank space they occupy.

Substrate:PNW playsand. I specify the region because I’ve noticed playsand is very, very different depending on where you live. In Louisiana our playsand was very light, fine, and had few particulates. Here it is dark and has a lot of gravelly looking stuff mixed in. I added Thrive root tabs (which as usual abandoned ship and floated up in spite of poking holes in them and squeezing out the air.

Inhabitants: Neocardina shrimp (about thirty) and two mystery snails, plus however many pest snails hitchhiked on the dang plants. The shrimp I got for ridiculously cheap and/or free (I have been collecting culls) so if they get eaten it’s totally fine; they’re mostly in there to help keep the tank as clean as possible and to produce enough waste that the bacteria from the used media doesn’t stall out.

Other stuff: I got a fluval gravel vac on sale! I have only ever used a siphon, so I’m not sure how well this guy will work. I am hoping the answer is “really well”, but I am prepared to deal with “meh”. I also finally found an adapter for my sink down here that fits the python, so potentially I can do WC much more seamlessly, unless I need to age my water, which takes me to my next point.

Water parameters:
KH 1
GH 4
TDS 80ppm
PH 7 (tap is 7.4, I think the wood has softened the water).

If you are still with me and aren’t ready to strangle me for making every beginner mistake in the book, I have a few questions.

1.) With a potential difference of .4 PH, do I need to age and aerate my water before WC?

2.) I was advised to consider doing a blackwater tank for discus - but that means adding leaves to add tannins to the water, which will make it much more difficult to clean the substrate. I’m going to assume the advice here will be “seriously, don’t do that”. Thoughts?

3.) Anyone have experience with “The Wet Spot” in Portland? They supply all the discus the LFS carry here. I think I’m just going to go with Golden State, unless someone has firsthand experience with this other place.

My plan is to let it sit now and let the plants do their thing for a while, while watching the PH/KH/GH/TDS like I do for my other shrimp tanks. I keep a journal for all my tanks so that shouldn’t be too bad. I guess now is the time to share a photo of how it looks, and I am frankly terrified because I’m certain I’ve done it all wrong.

IMG_1815.jpg

And please excuse the ugly plastic apparatus if you can see it (preview is cropping it for me) - I use one of these on my goldfish tank to reduce mess when feeding, and I’d like to see if discus will eat out of it or if it’s too deep for their little faces. It’s curved and fairly shallow; it also has a corral at the top for floating foods.

[brewmaster15]

Glad to see you are still with us and didnt get scared away!

To answer your questions..


1) you should easily be able to do water changes without aging. Even here with huge swings between aged and tap water I can still do 25-30% wc unaged.

2)blackwater is not necessary. Clean water is. If you want the look of blackwater its doable with some milled peat moss in your filter..or high tannin leaves. Alternatively you can add rooibos tea.. several here use that.

3)Wetspot has a good reputation for fish in general. As for their Discus, I havent seen many pics posted here by hobbyists. The thing that is important to remember when buying discus.. if you buy them from a local fish store they have been exposed to many things as weekly these places get fish in from all over. Often they are housed with fish that really aren't a great match for discus and often they are kept at temps that are inappropriate for them. If you buy them from a discus seller that specializes in discus you minimize alot of risk associated with petshops.

Im not knocking petshops here but it is the nature of their business and should not be overlooked.. There are also some lfs that do a really good job with a hard situation.

[bluelagoon]

Ok, nice planted tank but to me it doesn't look like a discus tank that will last long. But it should be ok for a while before you start having issues. When I see plants in the substrate; I know it's going to be very difficult to keep that substrate clean. Discus that I've seem on here with substrate that don't get clean/siphoned with WC's, usually wind up with hexamita. Seems discus are prone to the nasties that can live in tank substrate in great numbers. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[LizStreithorst]

I think that with Discus in this tank and your low kH you might need to change more than 25 or 30 percent daily. I'm not sure on this but my kH is 4.5 and I need to age for my BB tanks.

I agree on what Al said about pet shops vs importers. A good importer will take pics of videos of the fish you are interested in so you are much more likely to get what you expect.

[ravvlet]

Glad to see you are still with us and didnt get scared away!

To answer your questions..


1) you should easily be able to do water changes without aging. Even here with huge swings between aged and tap water I can still do 25-30% wc unaged.

2)blackwater is not necessary. Clean water is. If you want the look of blackwater its doable with some milled peat moss in your filter..or high tannin leaves. Alternatively you can add rooibos tea.. several here use that.

3)Wetspot has a good reputation for fish in general. As for their Discus, I havent seen many pics posted here by hobbyists. The thing that is important to remember when buying discus.. if you buy them from a local fish store they have been exposed to many things as weekly these places get fish in from all over. Often they are housed with fish that really aren't a great match for discus and often they are kept at temps that are inappropriate for them. If you buy them from a discus seller that specializes in discus you minimize alot of risk associated with petshops.

Im not knocking petshops here but it is the nature of their business and should not be overlooked.. There are also some lfs that do a really good job with a hard situation.

Hey! Thanks for the heads up. The store I am considering working with only special orders them for customers; they don’t keep them in stock, so they would go into a quarantine tank awaiting pick up. TBH though, it ends up being around the same price as Golden State, I just wouldn’t have to pay shipping, as they just add the discus to their regular orders. If I didn’t have an electric car I’d just drive down and check them out! I still might, if I can find a rapid charging station between here and there. My partner used to live down there and she and I have been meaning to take the kids for a day trip.

[ravvlet]

Ok, nice planted tank but to me it doesn't look like a discus tank that will last long. But it should be ok for a while before you start having issues. When I see plants in the substrate; I know it's going to be very difficult to keep that substrate clean. Discus that I've seem on here with substrate that don't get clean/siphoned with WC's, usually wind up with hexamita. Seems discus are prone to the nasties that can live in tank substrate in great numbers. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

I know, I watched Al’s lecture and realized right off the bat I’ve got a lot wrong. I am hoping the gravel vac will save my bacon. I am going to test the vacc out while I’m letting the tank age to get an idea of how well it works vs a normal siphon.

[ravvlet]

I think that with Discus in this tank and your low kH you might need to change more than 25 or 30 percent daily. I'm not sure on this but my kH is 4.5 and I need to age for my BB tanks.

I agree on what Al said about pet shops vs importers. A good importer will take pics of videos of the fish you are interested in so you are much more likely to get what you expect.

Dang! Yeah, the water here is so soft. It’s been great for neos (I’ve found it very easy to keep the KH/GH/TDS in the sweet spot for them) but it does seem kind of awkward for some fish. The plants seem to like it though. I know the KH went up a bit in my tank with CO2; something about the CO2 bonding with something in the water - I forget how, but my buddy who is a science guy explained it to me.

Thanks again for being patient with me everyone. I am a member of a parrot forum and I know how exhausting it can be to explain to new people that they’re doing it wrong for the billionth time.

[Iminit]

Ok I don’t understand the reason for aging because of kh. My gh is 1 kh is 4 and ph is 7. I’ve never aged my water. It reads the same out of the tap as it does a week later in my community tank. Only thing that changes is the nitrates. But I never even test for them with the water I change. Does kh change for some people when aged?

Op your tank looks like a great community tank. But more than likely you will have problems down the line with discus. First the warm water can be bad for plants. Many will die off when added but grow back after they adjust to the water. For substrate you will need to vaccume out the substrate to keep the water clean. Every time you do you will be shocked how much stuff comes out.

Buying online from the sponsors here is the best bet. But if forced to buy locally only buy new stock. Try to buy in the first week of arrival. Then qt the fish in a tank of their own for at least a month. This should be done with any discus bought after your first group. Mixing any discus can be a problem.

[Willie]

Our local aquarium club occasionally put together orders with Wet Spot to reduce the cost of shipping for everyone. Some people have ordered discus from them. I can tell you that you're not going to get high quality discus from a general shop. They were healthy but does not compare to what I get from Simply Sponsors. Either order from Simply Sponsors or a discus specialty store if you want the best fish.

[jwcarlson]

ravvlet, as far as filtration goes, I went a year or nearly so with just two double stacked ACO sponge filters in my 75 doing a growout with daily 90% water changes with aged/preheated water. That said, discus aren't for the faint of heart, but with your water maybe you can get away with less maintenance than I can with my high pH, hard water here. But even still doing about three 90% water changes a week in a barebottom tank, I feel like I'm not changing enough water. And, this coming from a pretty big ACO fan and user of a lot of their products... the guidance on discus is sketchy. If you watch what Dean does with his discus, you'll get a good idea on perhaps a better way of keeping discus might be. Remember that for every beautifully planted discus tank you see there's probably 20 outcomes that are the exact opposite.

My initial goal was to grow out my discus a bit and then transition into a planted tank. I'm glad that I didn't try that as it absolutely wouldn't have ended well. I actually started with sand and within short order tore the whole thing down and removed it.
I will say that as my discus have grown, they've become less sensitive to water quality to some extent. So, I would suggest getting bigger discus as they probably have a better shot at thriving. And I'll second or third or fourth the advice of not going through a shop.

[LizStreithorst]

Ok I don’t understand the reason for aging because of kh. My gh is 1 kh is 4 and ph is 7. I’ve never aged my water. It reads the same out of the tap as it does a week later in my community tank. Only thing that changes is the nitrates. But I never even test for them with the water I change. Does kh change for some people when aged?

Op your tank looks like a great community tank. But more than likely you will have problems down the line with discus. First the warm water can be bad for plants. Many will die off when added but grow back after they adjust to the water. For substrate you will need to vaccume out the substrate to keep the water clean. Every time you do you will be shocked how much stuff comes out.

Buying online from the sponsors here is the best bet. But if forced to buy locally only buy new stock. Try to buy in the first week of arrival. Then qt the fish in a tank of their own for at least a month. This should be done with any discus bought after your first group. Mixing any discus can be a problem.

It's not that the kH changes. It's the fact that with such a low kH he's more likely to have a pH crash unless he changes more water. I'd like to know what Al thinks about this situation. He's more knowledgeable about all things Discus than I am. It's the pH swing between the water from the tap compared to the swing in pH from aged water that matters.

I agree that you it would be best he chose adults rather than juveniles. And with both you and Willie. Buying from a sponsor is be way better than buying from any pet store.

[fljones3]

I know, I watched Al’s lecture and realized right off the bat I’ve got a lot wrong. I am hoping the gravel vac will save my bacon. I am going to test the vacc out while I’m letting the tank age to get an idea of how well it works vs a normal siphon.

Been this route with the vac, when I started. It might look like it is working for 6 months or so — then, you get disease issues. Start off by following Al's advice to the "T." It will save you time and money — FWIW.

[ravvlet]

ravvlet, as far as filtration goes, I went a year or nearly so with just two double stacked ACO sponge filters in my 75 doing a growout with daily 90% water changes with aged/preheated water. That said, discus aren't for the faint of heart, but with your water maybe you can get away with less maintenance than I can with my high pH, hard water here. But even still doing about three 90% water changes a week in a barebottom tank, I feel like I'm not changing enough water. And, this coming from a pretty big ACO fan and user of a lot of their products... the guidance on discus is sketchy. If you watch what Dean does with his discus, you'll get a good idea on perhaps a better way of keeping discus might be. Remember that for every beautifully planted discus tank you see there's probably 20 outcomes that are the exact opposite.

My initial goal was to grow out my discus a bit and then transition into a planted tank. I'm glad that I didn't try that as it absolutely wouldn't have ended well. I actually started with sand and within short order tore the whole thing down and removed it.
I will say that as my discus have grown, they've become less sensitive to water quality to some extent. So, I would suggest getting bigger discus as they probably have a better shot at thriving. And I'll second or third or fourth the advice of not going through a shop.

Hey! Yeah, I am not relying solely on the sponge; I have a HOB on this tank. Would a canister do me better? I have read mixed reviews on canister versus HOB. As I understand it the HOB is nice because it’s more easily accessible to rinse the media (in tank water, and not at the same time as a WC so as not to deplete bacteria…). I have a fluval canister on our goldfish tank, and he’s disgusting, but it’s done an amazing job of keeping things clean. I am kicking myself for somehow not realizing that the canister would be too tall for the shelving… I was looking at a Fluval FX2 and at 16.5 in I think I could just barely squeeze it under there.

[ravvlet]

Been this route with the vac, when I started. It might look like it is working for 6 months or so — then, you get disease issues. Start off by following Al's advice to the "T." It will save you time and money — FWIW.

Dang it to Betsy. With sand? Gravel? I know it’s the epitome of hubris to still wanna try growing them out when I know I’m doomed to failure. But it’s my favorite part of raising fish and other critters. I blame poultry. Chicken math has ruined me, and now I want to hand raise everything! Don’t ask me about the time I discovered coturnix quail… safe to say everyone on my street was eating quail eggs like it was going out of style.

I guess I could always strip the tank down, but then I’d lose a couple hundred bucks worth of plants - the sand was free, heh. I’m letting them sit in the hot tank for now to see who does or doesn’t melt. Some of the ferns have melted back a bit but are already greening up again, and the buce doesn’t seem to care. Hairgrass was in rough shape when I got it and hasn’t changed, swords, Val and hornwort seem to be thriving.

[ravvlet]

Hmm… if I take the driftwood out, would that help any? Or is it primarily the substrate and carpeting plants that will pose an issue? I am fairly certain I can sell the driftwood to another local hobbyist easily, especially with all the ferns on it…