Quarantine questions

[Johanna]

Ok, I'm not quite sure if this is the right forum for this thread but since I am a beginner in a way... never before done a proper discus quarantine.

I've had my 4 new discus in the 125 l qt tank for a week now. Just getting used to the new water and starting to eat, no medications yet. Basically I want to follow Al's step by step instructions but we have different (much more limited) treatment options available here so I have to do some modifications.

My plan is to start a 3-week course with either Fluke Solve (praziquantel) or Camacell (diflubenzurone 12,5 mg, pyrantel tartrate 341 mg, flubendazole 17,6 mg) or both of them 2 weeks + 1 week and a few days between treatments. How would you do it using these medications?

Then, at the end of the quarantine, I'm still not sure how to go about introducing the new fish into the main tank. I've read some people are using what they call a vaccination method, where I think instead of using the hero fish (?) they sloooowly mix the two tanks' water to get the fishes' immune systems used to each other's bacteria. Beginning with only one droplet at a time and increasing the volume until the water in both tanks is basically the same. But the timeline, volume and frequency of mixing the water is unclear to me and I haven't got any answers by asking elsewhere so... is anyone here familiar with this method? pros and cons compared to the 'hero fish' method? Am I missing or confusing something here?

My reason for hesitating with adding a 'hero fish' into the quarantine tank is simply that I don't have a "cull" or a least favourite fish. I don't want to risk any of the older discus if not absolutely necessary. I don't suppose another fish, like a tetra, from the main tank could be used instead...?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Johanna, here's is a thread for Al's quarantine thread https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...tine-Procedure in case you have not read it. I will let others help with your treatment plan and I have not heard of the "vaccination" method.
Pat

[brewmaster15]

Hi Johanna,

Alot of my quarantine is focused on observing and treating what I see. Prophylactic deworming being the exception. I would not try and treat for flukes if you do not know your fish have them. The reason being flukes are difficult to treat and eradicate and the only way you can know you have succeeded is gill scrapings and a scope. Deworming for something like nematodes is usually done with 3 treatments spaced at a few weeks apart..

I would not use the Fluke solve unless the fish present signs of flukes. Given your options the Camacell sounds a better choice and it should also work on Flukes (flubendazole)


https://www-aquariumwarenhuis-nl.tra..._x_tr_pto=wapp
1.jpg

2.png

By the instructions it looks like you can treat this med as we use Levamisole...

I would do three treatments... day 1, day 7, day 21... you can add a 4th treatment at another week or two if it does not stress the fish out. These time points are estimates that hope to catch the adults and any hatching eggs.



as for the alternative to the hero method, It sounds like alot of work but in theory it should help except in cases where virus are not being actively shed into the water. The Hero fish would most likely get stressed and if there was a virus present, it would either shed it or succumb to it.I'm not sure the alternative method you described would be as effective.


al

[Johanna]

Thanks again, you are both awesome!

I guess I'm going to go with Camacell as you suggested and see if there's any change in their behaviour. Hope it's all that's needed. At the moment they are still very shy. Only one is actively moving around the tank and eating when I'm watching. Other two have eaten when it's very quiet and I'm not anywhere near. The smallest one (a wild cross of some kind, seems to be more timid than the others) still hasn't started eating, or I haven't seen it at least. But they all look healthy and no signs of parasites so far. When I got my first batch of discus in the summer, it took them almost 3 weeks to start eating and were very picky at first. They developed other symptoms of flukes a few weeks later. It all changed only after I had done 3 rounds of deworming and fluke treatment. I think the main culprit really was flukes because I did look at their poop with a microscope (perks of my old job), found very few of something that looked like flagellates but nothing like worms or worm eggs. I'm embarrassingly scared of handling fish so couldn't do the scrape then and still don't like the idea, I'd rather avoid it forever if I can... But the new fish are from the same source so they may be carrying all the same hidden pathogens so I think it's best to medicate them right away, before the stress of moving can cause the symptoms to appear.

[Johanna]

It's been 3 days now since I added Camacell into the qt tank, normally I have done 20% daily water change during qt but Camacell instructions say to do it after 5 days. Then repeat the course at 7-10 days for flukes. I can't wait that long (the tank is only 125 l) so did the water change yesterday and re-dosed the medication for 25 litres. My question is, does it sound reasonable to do the water change + re-dose on day 2, day 4, then just a bigger water change on day 6 & 7 and then do another course with a full dose?

I haven't seen any significant changes in the fish, they look ok and everyone has started eating. One is a fat pig that eats everything greedily. Others are more picky and timid eaters but they do eat frozen brine shrimp and frozen discus mix. My only concern is the biggest of the four, which is dominant but not the greedy one. His breathing is more pronounced on one side. I'd imagine Camacell should have killed flukes by now? Could it be something else? Or should I still treat with Praziquantel as well?

[seanyuki]

For gill flukes, at least 2 treatments are needed , spaced 4 or 5 days apart. Gill flukes reproduce by laying eggs, and like most parasites, their eggs are immune medications. This means that the first treatment will only kill the adult and juvenile flukes, but not the eggs. The second treatment is needed, usually after 4 or 5 days, to kill next generation of flukes once they hatch.

[Johanna]

I will do a second treatment after this one is complete. Just seems weird to me that symptoms would come up when there's medication currently in the water. If new flukes are hatching, wouldn't they just die off? Although to be honest I can't say for sure if that fish was breathing one-sided from the beginning and I just didn't notice it.

[brewmaster15]

I will do a second treatment after this one is complete. Just seems weird to me that symptoms would come up when there's medication currently in the water. If new flukes are hatching, wouldn't they just die off? Although to be honest I can't say for sure if that fish was breathing one-sided from the beginning and I just didn't notice it.

When a fish has gill flukes and you treat for them several things can happen. If you use something like formalin the gill flukes get knocked off the fish. Other agents like what you are using out right kill the flukes. When this happens the flukes often leave the hooks in the gills that they were fastened to the tissue by. These hooks are a cause of irritation and localized infection. This takes time to heal. Often people think their fluke medication isnt working but it worked fine...what they are seeing is what happens after the flukes die.

[brewmaster15]

See here for info on flukes..
https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...s_intro9.shtml

Screenshot_20240102-221537_Chrome.jpg

Lower image...see the hooks.

[Johanna]

Thanks, very interesting! Also it explains what happened with my first batch of discus (Fluke Solve worked well at first but the fish seemed to relapse just a few days later and I ended up doing several different treatments thinking the flukes might have developed resistance). I was told before that there might be a need for antibacterial medication after Fluke Solve because of a secondary infection. But I gather from the posts above that it should resolve by itself.

[brewmaster15]

Thanks, very interesting! Also it explains what happened with my first batch of discus (Fluke Solve worked well at first but the fish seemed to relapse just a few days later and I ended up doing several different treatments thinking the flukes might have developed resistance). I was told before that there might be a need for antibacterial medication after Fluke Solve because of a secondary infection. But I gather from the posts above that it should resolve by itself.

It usually does, but it really depends alot of the extent of fluke infection, the immune system of the fish, and overall water quality.

al

[Johanna]

Today is day 9 since the Camacell treatment, and i've done 3 days of bigger daily water changes, about 40-50% to get the old medication out. So it's time for the second treatment according to plan. But I'm still questioning whether I should go with Camacell or Fluke solve or even Sera omnipur (in case there's an infection) now instead, as the one fish with one-sided breathing hasn't really improved despite water changes and trying to keep the tank as clean as possible. Btw it's not always the same side he keeps closed, it changes from time to time. He is still showing aggression and is eating, but he only eats frozen artemia and FD tubifex cubes. Those two types of foods he eats with fairly good appetite. Anything else I try to offer, the fish isn't even interested. All he cares about is attacking the others as they eat or swim close to his territory behind the driftwood. He looks good and healthy except a little thin in the stomach area from eating less, and his colour is a bit darker than another smaller one of the same strain in the group. Not sure if the darker colour is from aggression or discomfort from the gill issue?

So the question is, do I still continue with Camacell or try something else?

[brewmaster15]

Unless a fish is having an adverse reaction I would finish the dosing.. otherwise you could create resistent pathogens. It sounds like it isnt a life threatening issue that you are dealing with.


Eggs may still be hatching from the first treatment.

[Johanna]

Thanks, makes sense and I did the second dose with Camacell yesterday. And today it does look like there is some improvement! Breathing looks more balanced and the fish showed some interest in food that he hasn't eaten previously (although I think he blew all of it out after tasting), also swimming around more boldly while everyone's eating and not just attacking others from his hideout. He even ate the artemia with more gusto than usual.

I have uploaded a couple of new videos of the feeding, just to compare how they act with different foods and for future reference to track the progress.

https://youtu.be/BDhPiEQBRxI
seafood mix

https://youtu.be/U-1re7mJW08
artemia

[Discus Fever]

They definitely look like their appetite is coming back for sure.