Discus loss of appetite, appearance of stress bars and odd black dots

[duckyser]

Dear Simply Discus Community,

I would like your advice on my discus which have been ill lately.


DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
I have a 125 gallon aquarium containing 13 discus ranging in size from 3-5 inches. Over the last 6 weeks I have noticed a very gradual decrease in appetite and the appearance of stress bars on most of the fish. Currently only half the discus eat vigorously while the other half don't react when the food is dropped in and may only occasionally peck at the food but barely eat anything. Not sure if it is related, but I have noticed some black dots 1-2mm in diameter (not peppering) which which appear and then disappear in 1-2 days. Also none of the fish had any stress bars whatsoever prior to this illness starting.


EDIT: 2 months ago I made beefheart mix for the first time and like an IDIOT I added tilapia (freshwater farmed fish) to the mix. I am sure through this some pathogen was introduced to the aquarium. In the feeding section I mention the fish are currently on a beef heart mix, this is a new batch which I made certain not to use any freshwater fish in the mix.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

-decreased or complete lack of appetite
-black dots or marks 1-2mm
-2 of the 13 discuss are extremely scared and hide 95% of the time even during feeding


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
-10 days metronidazole 600mg/10gallon dosed daily



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
-13 discus ranging in size 3-5 inches
-45 cardinal tetras
-45 rummy nose tetras


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
- 70% water change twice per week (every 3-4 days)


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
-tank running for 5 months, pool filter sand substrate 2 inches.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
-water not aged, tap water (same temp) added directly to tank with double dose seachem safe.


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
-seachem safe


9. Parameters and water source;
temp: 29C
pH: 7.4-7.6
ammonia: 0ppm
nitirite: 0ppm
nitrate: 5-20ppm



What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water _X___

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
-tetras added 5 months ago
-first batch of 8 discus added 3 months ago
-second batch of 5 discus added 2 months ago


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
-3x daily (beefheart in the morning, tetra pro colour / hikari vibra bites in the afternoon and night)

I have included photos and a youtube video of the fish. Perhaps there are some physical indications of sickness that I have not recognized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adLOxmHHj-o


Attachment 138319Attachment 138320Attachment 138321Attachment 138322

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
First thing I would suggest to get them eating is to try other foods... Is there any off colored...white or yellow feces?

That 2" filter sand is pretty deep.. you could be getting anaerobic pockets that might explain the behavior change.


The pigments spots are odd being on different strains.. at this point there is not alot to go for disease issues but the black spots could and its a big could be a tubellaria worm... its found in salt water fish and could possible be from the beefheart mix if you use any marine fish. Its not common... and I have only seen it once that I confirmed. I think I would look at the substrate and tank hygiene first and try other foods..blackworms and bloodworms..artemia etc..

[bluelagoon]

When you do a big 70% WC from the tap, I cringe when I read this in most cases. There's always chance that you'll get micro-bubbles from water coming in under pressure; over time this can stress discus. Are there many bubbles on the glass and other objects after a WC? If so you'll need to age water no matter if there is a ph swing or not.

[duckyser]

Hi,
First thing I would suggest to get them eating is to try other foods... Is there any off colored...white or yellow feces?

That 2" filter sand is pretty deep.. you could be getting anaerobic pockets that might explain the behavior change.


The pigments spots are odd being on different strains.. at this point there is not alot to go for disease issues but the black spots could and its a big could be a tubellaria worm... its found in salt water fish and could possible be from the beefheart mix if you use any marine fish. Its not common... and I have only seen it once that I confirmed. I think I would look at the substrate and tank hygiene first and try other foods..blackworms and bloodworms..artemia etc..

Thank you for taking the time to read my post. The feces are normal as far as I can tell, brown and pink in colour (pink when they eat the flakes).

For the anaerobic bacteria, I do put my hand into the sand and agitate the sand after vacuuming any poop on the surface during cleanings. Is this usually enough to ensure there are no anaerobic pockets?

I will look into some black worms as well.

Thanks

[duckyser]

When you do a big 70% WC from the tap, I cringe when I read this in most cases. There's always chance that you'll get micro-bubbles from water coming in under pressure; over time this can stress discus. Are there many bubbles on the glass and other objects after a WC? If so you'll need to age water no matter if there is a ph swing or not.

Thank you for your reply.

When I do a water change there are indeed many tiny bubbles that often cover the discus (I fill directly from the tap). I was not aware this was an issue.

I have a spare 80G aquarium I can use to age the water. I have also read that a filter sock over the hose with sponge inside can remove the bubbles and enable direct filling from the tap which is more convenient. Do you have any experience with the latter? If not I will try aging the water in the 80G to be on the safer side.

[jeep]

The bubbles you see are compressed gasses (nitrogen and Co2) that are expanding as they are depressurized and warmed. These gasses can be an irritation at best and lethal at worst as changes in ph occur. It's not just the ph of the water, but ph can rise and lower in the blood stream. Although I have seen claims of filter socks removing these, I don't see the logic in how any mechanical process can remove an expanding gas. About the only thing I could see a sock accomplishing would be to add extra agitation that would help speed up the off-gassing process.

In summer time I can usually do a 40% water change from tap. In winter only 25%. This is because of the ground water temp. Warmer water contains less compressed gas.

As someone who recently lost hundreds of discus from a water change from tap (only 20%), I will never risk it again! I always age and heat my water in holding barrels...

[jeep]

I see in your edit that you used tilapia in your feed mix. I can see you now regret that, lol...

Tilapia is one of the most toxic fish there is because of how they are raised and processed and I would never consume it because of the high levels of methyltestosterone and dioxin and other nasty stuff including human waste. But I'm not sure if this could cause the black spots.

Are there any snails in your tank?

[duckyser]

I see in your edit that you used tilapia in your feed mix. I can see you now regret that, lol...

Tilapia is one of the most toxic fish there is because of how they are raised and processed and I would never consume it because of the high levels of methyltestosterone and dioxin and other nasty stuff including human waste. But I'm not sure if this could cause the black spots.

Are there any snails in your tank?

I will use the 80G and age the water then.

I do have snails, they came in with the plants I bought.

[bluelagoon]

Thank you for your reply.

When I do a water change there are indeed many tiny bubbles that often cover the discus (I fill directly from the tap). I was not aware this was an issue.

I have a spare 80G aquarium I can use to age the water. I have also read that a filter sock over the hose with sponge inside can remove the bubbles and enable direct filling from the tap which is more convenient. Do you have any experience with the latter? If not I will try aging the water in the 80G to be on the safer side.

I've always used a 75 gal. aging barrel. Sometimes I used some from the tap to top it off. but no more than about 20%. The tap water here will stress them if not aged and I consider my water good soft water with a ph of about 7.2-7.4 by the time it gets to me, but is 6.4 from the lake it comes from. Most municipalities that has treated water will have gases/microbubbles. That's why most folks stick to the 25-30% rule when changing water from the tape. The chemical change is too sudden for some sensitive species. It's best for that change to take place in the barrel. Basically, the carbonic acid will gas off and add O2 bringing your water to an equilibrium. I think your fish will be better off in aged water if you continue with large WC's.

[Iminit]

I to use tap water. Before the tanks it goes through a standard undercounter filterBCF3742D-0B0D-40FD-A838-5A178024232B.jpg and in the winter I do add a sponge to the hose to reduce the micro bubbles and I run the water slowly through the filter. So hardly any bubbles in the tank.

[duckyser]

Update: Yesterday I did the first water change with aged water and also at the same time does praziquantel 80mg/10g. Today noticed what appears as a tapeworm coming out.
t1.jpg

[brewmaster15]

Update: Yesterday I did the first water change with aged water and also at the same time does praziquantel 80mg/10g. Today noticed what appears as a tapeworm coming out.
t1.jpg

Definitely.
https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...apeworms.shtml

[duckyser]

My new plan going forward is to complete praziquantel treatment (3 treatments total) and continue using the aged water. If after a week post treatment there is still no improvement, I am considering treating them for callamanus worms using nematol.

Does this sound like a good plan? Are there any other parasites which don’t have any obvious symptoms that I should be blindly treating for?

[brewmaster15]

My new plan going forward is to complete praziquantel treatment (3 treatments total) and continue using the aged water. If after a week post treatment there is still no improvement, I am considering treating them for callamanus worms using nematol.

Does this sound like a good plan? Are there any other parasites which don’t have any obvious symptoms that I should be blindly treating for?

It sounds like a good plan. I have no experience with nematol though its literature indicates it works on multiole species of worms.

Sera Nematol is a very effective remedy against nematodes such as Camallanus, roundworms (Capillaria) and discus pinworms (oxyurids) for fresh and salt water fish. A sensational R & D success: sera med Professional Nematol is the first ornamental fish treatment against Nematodes that may be sold freely. It is based on a patented Emamectin/solvent complex, highly effective and easy to dose. sera med Professional Nematol is particularly effective against Camallanus and round worms of the genus Capillaria, which mainly occur in angelfish and discus.

emamectin is related to ivermectin and though it works on worms its an insecticide.

I would use it with caution if you do as I honestly have no idea how well its tolerated. Sera is a well known brand so hopefully its been well tested.

As for other parasites .. I would wait and see if theres further issues. I will be interested to see what happens to.the black spots with deworming.

Al

[duckyser]

Update:

I completed the praziquantel treatment (80mg/10gallons once every 3 days) [3 treatments, 9 days total] and have continued the use of 24 hour aged water. Over the course of the 9 days tapeworms were continually expelled, with a particularly large number on day 7. Tapeworms were observed on the aquarium glass (still moving) right above the water line appearing as if they were trying to escape the water. Some orange worms were also observed above the waterline, these worms (3-4mm long and 1mm in diameter) were much thicker and shorter than the tapeworms (figure 1). Lastly some round 0.5mm diameter sand like particles also accumulated on the glass (figure 2).

Fig 1. The orange worms:
orange_worms.jpg


Fig. 2. The white sand like particles:
white_sand_like_particles.jpg

Previously I mentioned that I would wait a week to post-praziquantel treatment to start treating for camallanus worms, however after 3 days and observing no improvement in appetite I have decided to begin treatment for camallanus worms using nematol (emamectin benzoate). The black dots/pigmentation also currently remain unchanged.

I am considering doing a skin scrape on a couple of the most sick fish to help diagnose the issue. Beyond simple microscopy is there anything else I can do to help diagnose the issue? My biggest problem here is a lack of information to base a diagnosis from.

Treatments tried:
-metronidazole 600mg/10g for 10 days
-praziquantel 80mg/10g once every 3 days [9 days total]

treatments in progress:
-nematol (according to manufacturers instructions)

Other changes/treatments I am considering:
-the tapeworm infestation may have been heavy based on the observed expelled parasites. I am considering a second round of de-worming with a different anti-anthelmintic
-remove all sand and go bare bottom + some antibacterial treatment (for anerobic bacteria)
-Try Seachem Paraguard
-chemical to kill snails as they are an intermediate host for some parasites

Please give me your feedback and advice on how I should proceed.

Thank you