Discus in quarantine losing appetite

[Johanna]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

One of the 4 new discus is going downhill in qt. He was the dominant one although easily scared at first, last to start eating and had a gill problem following a Camacell treatment, but that seems to have improved (I'd say back to normal). He started eating Artemia and tried some other foods last week, but has again lost interest in food a couple of days ago.

This thread is related to the other topic https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...tine-questions I'm just going to copy the relevant part from the latest post here:

Something's not right with the 'problem fish' but I can't see what the problem is. Yesterday and today he doesn't seem to show much interest even in artemia. He looks somehow tired and avoids the feeding frenzy but occasionally picks at some food still. Mostly spends his time under the driftwood, no more attacking the others as they swim by - just a tiny shuffle towards them at most. All the other fish are doing very well and this one doesn't show any signs of a particular disease. The breathing is normal. Just a general decline in appetite and activity level just when I thought he was starting to look good. He's still a bit dark in colour, too. Any ideas?



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Nothing external, except a bit darker / more bluish colour than the other Eruption ( I suppose they should be the same). Hiding behind a driftwood, which he claimed as his territory from the beginning.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Two rounds of Camacell according to the quarantine plan: day 7 and day 16. During the first round the fish showed signs of gill flukes (breathing one-sided and more laboured). After the second round, the symptoms disappeared. The fish started eating better after a few days until stopped again.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

125 l, 4 discus about 10-12 cm

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

25% daily + siphoning the waste, except during treatments, when I changed every other day and replaced the lost amount of medication.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

It has been running empty of fish since I medicated my first batch of discus in it in October. Cleaned tank, filter etc and added Prodibio Start Up Biodigest & Stop Ammo to restart the cycle for the new fish. Tank is bare bottom, one piece of driftwood.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

No need to age it, just add dechlorinator. pH swing of only about 0,1-0,2


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

Prodac Aquasana, recommended dose (which is approximate and likely a little more than needed because it is impossible to measure exactly right for a small volume)


9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp ____29_

- ph ___7,1-7,2__

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____<12,5 (that's the lowest the test will show, could be anything up from zero.)

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __x__

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

nothing except the 4 new discus


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Copied from the other topic: My seafood mixes are salmon-based (Akvarie Teknik Discus Life series). That's the main food I give my discus, plus Tetra discus granules and Sera granules and Tetra crisps and flakes. Artemia and Mysis as a treat but not all of the discus eat Mysis. The FD Tubifex is by this brand, called Discus Hobby which is marketed as pathogen free...



12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Nothing new. there are a couple of videos in the previous thread. They are from the same day, one showing them eating Artemia, the second is seafood mix, which kind of shows the problem and the behaviour. I will try to get a new clip later today/tomorrow.

[brewmaster15]

Johanna,
Your problem fish here maybe suffering still from the aftermath of your deworming it. When a fish has worms the worms can burrow into tissue and organs. These worms then die when you treat them with a dewormer that can lead to localized infections and just not really doing well heath wise. There can be a period of time when the fish is just really off their game while they heal. I can't say 100% that this is whats happening but its one scenario that fits the time line and what you are seeing. You do want to watch for swollen abdomens and odd colored feces as that could mean theres a more than minor infection.If you can separate the fish to a bare hospital tank if will be easier to monitor it.. if not a partition in the QT tank may help.

al

[Johanna]

Update on this situation. I've been really sick for the past week and couldn't get out of bed much so the fish have had to make do with lacking maintenance... but I kept up with water changes in the qt tank and the new Artemia batch arrived so now I can feed lots of it. I didn't have another tank or even a suitable partition readily available but I took out the driftwood to make it easier to observe the fish and also to rob the problem fish of his hiding place. That seems to have helped (or time has helped) because now he is eating Artemia again, ate a liiittle bit of the frozen salmon and the aggression is definitely back. But now, seeing his movement and behaviour better I'm a bit concerned about his swimming position!? He seems to hold himself at an upright angle, tail down and near the bottom a lot. I'd assumed earlier that it was because he was hiding halfway under the driftwood that it forced the position, but he does it even in open water. Why is he doing that?

Two new videos, one is of the feeding and another where the strange swimming position can be seen.

https://youtu.be/cWXfAAT5eHc

https://youtu.be/_pFHCeZWMpo

[brewmaster15]

Hi Johanna,
Part of your tanks issue is you have a pair forming. Theres definitely prebreeding activity going on in that tank.
Al

[Johanna]

Thanks Al, really appreciate your help! That's interesting, can you tell which of the fish are pairing up? Should I put the driftwood back in to help with the aggression?

Another problem has appeared. Is this just an injury/bacterial growth or HITH?? I saw a little uneven bump on the skin without any white stuff in that same exact spot maybe 2 weeks ago and assumed an injury, as it disappeared on its own in a couple of days. And now it's back with this white spot that looks like a big bacterial node.

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[brewmaster15]

HI Johanna,
At this point I wouldnt do anything about the pairing up.. if you want to give them the driftwood put it off the the side.. the pair will take over that side the other two will be pudhed to the opposite side. Can't at this point say which two are going to be the pair. The amount of sparring you are seeing though is perfectly normal for cichlids. ..especially when you have 4 and a pair forming.


The white bump is an infected pore.. basically its a pimple. In most cases it ruptures on its own and leaves a small hole that closes up and heals without issue. Its commonly thought to be linked to water quality but sometimes they just happen .

Theres are cases where these bacterial pockets can be very bad but at this point the one on your fish doesnt look to be.

[Johanna]

Good to know it probably isn't something serious. I'm hoping it won't get worse because we can't get fish antibiotics *anywhere* anymore. Is there anything I can do to help it heal besides trying to keep the water as clean as possible - salt, maybe?

[brewmaster15]

The risk with something like this is the pimple becomes an abscess. Without access to antibiotics That would be very bad.

Something like this can happen..
https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...very-long-read.

Though thankfully its not common.



One thing.I can suggest is a salt dip.

https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...net/salt.shtml

It turns over slime coat and theres a really good chance that it will open that blocked pore.

Al

[Johanna]

3% salt dip? And for how long? This procedure scares me honestly One thing that comes to mind is I might be able to scavenge some Baktopur Direct somewhere as I know people stocked up before it was discontinued. I'll have to look into it tomorrow. If someone agrees to sell me some... would it be better to treat with that right away or wait and see how it develops?

[brewmaster15]

I dont like using or recommending an antibiotic when its not yet needed .

Salt dips are scary when you first do one but read up on them.. they really are a good option and can be safely done.

[Johanna]

This morning the pimple was just gone. No hole in its place, just a little skin irritation / some unevenness maybe missing a couple of scales... it's hard to describe or even see for sure but it looks like a tiny little scuff mark.

[Johanna]

So it has become an emergency now. Problem Fish doesn't look good. This morning the weird swimming has increased to the point that he's dragging his tail and body looks curved at times. Occasional tail standing. Found him stuck to the filter intake. He's got a mark on his face that is not a hole, but a discolouration - lighter area with dark edges.

What should I do??

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[brewmaster15]

Johanna,
I think that fish has something going on internally. The loss of balance, darkening of fins, stress bars and listless look.. it could be a bacterial issue.. that patch that just appeared on the head is not something I have seen happen... But I suspect that its indicating an infection .
Sometimes discus will have discolored areas when theres a neurological issue from darting into something.
Sometimes fish that have been hormone treated at some point (common with spotteds and reds) undergo organ failure from the hormones down the road. its not something thats treatable.

I wish at could advise something here but at this point its up to the fish. The best you can do is keep the water clean and fingers crossed that it snaps out.

[Johanna]

Thanks, one thing I forgot to add. Got two tablets of Baktopur Direct from a friend. It's nowhere near enough for a full treatment but could be used as a high-concentration bath. Do you think it could be useful at this point?

[brewmaster15]

Honestly.. no. If you use antibiotics for too short of a time period you can create resistent bacteria. In your case its even more so because you really don't even know the cause of the ailment..

The antibiotic,nifurpirinol, is not fast acting.