Discus in quarantine losing appetite

[Johanna]

Ok, thank you! I appreciate the facts even when it's not what I want to hear. But I see there's no point in treating blindly just to try something. This really is the weirdest problem, the fish is now hiding, almost completely black, swimming in a tilted position but still defending his hiding spot as I feed them and he even ate a couple of artemia shrimps. His breathing is again heavy and one-sided. As it's been uphill-downhill until now, still hoping for a change for the better. I have now prepared the 40L hospital tank just in case, if it's better to separate that fish. The others seem to be perfectly ok for now.

Just goes to prove how important quarantine is... so glad right now I decided to do it instead of having to deal with this issue in the main tank.

[Johanna]

I moved the fish into the small hospital tank last night and he looks a bit better now. Swimming position is more upright and breathing looks more normal. Did not eat but otherwise I think has improved a little.

[Johanna]

Update on the sick fish... not getting better or worse. He's mostly sitting on the bottom of the tank and when he moves around it looks more like bouncing than swimming. He's lost buoyancy and looks almost like his tail is paralyzed. But breathing looks fairly normal and the discoloured area on his face looks like it's fading and getting smaller. He hasn't eaten since I put him into the hospital tank.

And since there's nothing to lose and he's separated from the others... I'm still trying the antibiotics. I managed to get more of Baktopur direct and now have enough for a 2 week treatment in the small tank. I also added a little salt 3g/25l and that seemed to make the fish perk up a little. But I'm worried about the apparent paralysis and if it is even possible to cure something like that. How long is it ethical to try, if the fish can't swim properly would be better to just euthanize it?

[brewmaster15]

Johanna thats really a personal call. For me.a few days at most is what I would do. I'm not trying to be callous here but I honestly dont think this fish will make it. I would really like to be wrong but my experiences tell me otherwise.

Im really and truly sorry.

[Johanna]

Yeah, looks that way to me too, I'm not expecting miracles. I saw him pooping twice today, which I haven't seen in several days, and the faeces looked more or less normal. Brown, with a little bit of slime. I think he must have eaten something in the hospital tank then, otherwise seems like a very long time (5 days) since I've seen him eat. I think I'm going to give it a couple more days and see what happens.

Now, as I'm prepared to euthanize, I would like to look even that sad outcome as an opportunity to learn something. I'm thinking of dissecting the fish. I've done it before on native wild fish while studying but it's been ages. I have the equipment and a microscope. But I don't really have a clue what I'd be looking for to determine the possible cause of the disease. Are there any good resources for that?

[Johanna]

Another update. I hesitate to even say this because I don't want to get my hopes up, but for the past couple of days, the fish has looked better. Still not eating (I think) but being more alert and active, moving around the tank even when he's not scared and swimming short distances rather than just bouncing off the bottom. He seems to have regained some use of his tail. But there is still the lack of buoyancy issue and the tail seems to be slightly curved to the left. The discoloured area from his face has completely disappeared and the overall colour looks a bit better, although stress bars are still constantly visible. I had thought I would put him down today and had bought the clove oil for it, but I just can't do it now when there seems to be some improvement. For now, I think he's gained another few days to see how things develop.

[brewmaster15]

I hope he continues to improve for you Johanna!

Al

[Johanna]

Surprise this morning, instead of sinking like a rock, the fish can swim I think the swimbladder is functioning. His balance is still a bit off. But this is a big step forward.

two videos for comparing the progress.

January 31st


Today, February 2nd

[Johanna]

20240205_102825[1].jpg

Swimming has stabilised some from yesterday. Still not quite 100% but at first glance looks normal. This morning I also noticed some poop again (it's even in the picture). Weird somewhat transparent and reddish colour, even though I have only tried to feed frozen artemia, and haven't seen him eat. Could it be from gut infection? Or is it possible he might have eaten something after all?

Anyway the next challenge would be to get him to eat again. And if he improves further, what am I going to do? I can't really put him back with the others, can I? But the hospital tank is really small for keeping him a longer time.

// I caught the poop and put it under a microscope. It looks very clean (nothing alive in it) and something like possibly undigested artemia
20240205_124324[1].jpg

[brewmaster15]

Johanna when you are scoping the feces look for this..

Screenshot_20240205-074537_Chrome.jpg

Capillaria eggs ..

Also check out these links..
https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...ematodes.shtml

https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...es_intro.shtml

[Johanna]

20240205_161941[1].jpg This is from another sample, another piece of feces I found under the filter so might have been longer in the water. Found one egg, not sure if it is capillaria or something else. There were also a few other live (moving) microorganisms but only one or two of each type so probably not something to worry about.

Do you still think it might be worms after the 2 Camacell treatments in quarantine? (I removed this fish before the others had a third round).

[jwcarlson]

Johanna, I had a fairly similar issue last year that might be worth reviewing. Both the thread and the microscope pictures I took.
https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...d-eating/page3

[Johanna]

Sorry, I've been gone in the puppy land for the past few days - got 8 little ones and the mom wasn't producing enough milk so keeping them alive took all my time. Thankfully now it's looking much better and they are growing on their own. So time to get back to the problem fish..

The situation has been quite stable for the past few days, still slightly improved from my last post. The fish seems to be doing quite ok otherwise but still refuses to eat. There's still the Baktopur direct treatment going on (for the third week) and I'm planning to continue until the full 3 weeks and then stop. I haven't added anymore salt. I raised the temperature to 31C in hopes of getting him to eat. He did pick at some artemia once or twice but I don't think he ate any. Sometimes it looks like he gets a "coughing fit" when I put food in the tank. Sometimes he's spooked by feeding and backs away.

Johanna, I had a fairly similar issue last year that might be worth reviewing. Both the thread and the microscope pictures I took.
https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...d-eating/page3

Very interesting, thank you! I read all of it. Still, I'm not quite sure what to think re. my fish. Should I do another Camacell treatment? He still breathes one-sided especially when stressed and just in case there is capillaria... Camacell should take care of both flukes and worms?? But I'm also worried that Camacell might be too strong after the long antibiotic treatment and might actually harm the fish! After all, the problem fish initially started having problems following the first Camacell treatment.

// Forgot to add that I've been dosing vitamins (Sera Fishtamin) into the water every night for about a week and accidentally overdosed yesterday... tried to shake loose a clingy droplet and managed to squirt a lot of it into the tank instead... hope that isn't harmful and I'm going to skip at least the next couple of doses.

[Johanna]

Just another update to keep track of the problem fish. I see he's gained a nickname think the fish is still improving, with small changes in colour, movement and behaviour, and today I saw him repeatedly pick at a piece of tubifex. Not sure how much (if any) he actually ate, but he clearly showed interest in the food for the first time. I will try tubifex again tomorrow. It will be the last day of antibiotic treatment and then a few days in clean water... then I can probably move the other fish into the main tank and the problem fish can go back into the bigger qt tank. Once he's properly settled there I'm planning to do another Camacell treatment because I still think he's got flukes (and possibly worms if that egg was capillaria). I'm starting to feel a little optimistic about his chances of survival at this point. At least it hasn't been a totally wasted effort to try to save him.

[brewmaster15]

Johanna,
Are you learning anything doing all of this? Looks like it to me. ..in which case there is nothing wrong with trying...its not wasted effort .

If it gets to the point where you want to try one last ditch effort... there is gavaging .. basically using a syringe with a bent metal tube... used to dose small animals like mice.. its not without risk but it can turn a fish around.. you can force feed food.

Screenshot_20240214_175620.jpg