Old BH thread

[Vanman]

I found an old BH thread that I can not find anymore. It talked about hormones in BH causing strange fin growth. I thought it was strange at best and probably not caused by hormones in the BH mix. Now I am not so sure as some of my Discus have some weird fin growth, Does anybody remember the thread? or better yet, have a link to it.

I will try to get some pictures later today, but remember, I am no Al or Pat.

[brewmaster15]

That would be this one..

https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...ht=#post441874

[Vanman]

That is it.

My BH came from a local slaughterhouse that kills beef for individuals. I can get hearts only if the owner of the cow does not want it. I thought they would be hormone free, but now am not so sure.

I have four more hearts that I got a couple weeks ago but have not made into BH mix. Now I have to decide if I throw out the mix I have now and make fresh or abandon BH for good.

Has anybody had this problem recently? The thread Al linked to is 16 years old.

[brewmaster15]

Gary I don't think its a common problem. With all the people that feed beefheart I think we would see more cases if it was a common problem.

[Vanman]

I will try to get some pictures tonight or in the morning. Maybe I have something else going on. I really don't remember Discus being this difficult thirty years ago.

[jeep]

I feed beef heart regularly and haven't seen any apparent hormone related issues, but my beef heart isn't the main ingredient in my mix.

I'd love to find a local source. The price of BH has risen 200% for untrimmed heart. By the time I trim it and lose over 50% to fat, I'm paying around $10lb...

[brewmaster15]

Obviously beefheart isnt on the fish menu here but maybe you guys might want to look into poultry farms.. Peter Thode (Gwynnbrook) used Turkey hearts at his hatchery for years and years.

[Vanman]

I am paying $4 ea for untrimmed hearts.

[LizStreithorst]

I responded to several of those posts about hormoned beef hearts and stopped when I got tired of saying the same thing over and over again. What I said that it was not possible under normal conditions. The hormone bolus is injected into the calf at a certain point of growth and is no longer releasing hormones by the time the steer is old enough for slaughter. The bolus has already done its job. It is not stored in the steer's body. That would be like a woman no longer being able to get pregnant after quitting taking birth co hntrol pills.

But, in your case, Greg, it could be possible. If a steer gets injured somehow before the time the farmer would have sent it on to the feed lot, he would take it for slaughter before the bollus ran out of juice. I sure would like to see a pic. Please try.

[brewmaster15]

I responded to several of those posts about hormoned beef hearts and stopped when I got tired of saying the same thing over and over again. What I said that it was not possible under normal conditions. The hormone bolus is injected into the calf at a certain point of growth and is no longer releasing hormones by the time the steer is old enough for slaughter. The bolus has already done its job. It is not stored in the steer's body. That would be like a woman no longer being able to get pregnant after quitting taking birth co hntrol pills.

But, in your case, Greg, it could be possible. If a steer gets injured somehow before the time the farmer would have sent it on to the feed lot, he would take it for slaughter before the bollus ran out of juice. I sure would like to see a pic. Please try.

Liz in my area Veal hearts are common as an ethnic food.. age of slaughter is for veal is 18-20 months. I can see a scenario with veal hearts .. or as you say an early death.

[LizStreithorst]

I've never heard of hormones for veal calves. Next time I talk to my large animal vet I'll ask him more.

[Willie]

There are no hormones in beef heart, just Internet nonsense.

[brewmaster15]

I have no skin in the game so I will play devils advocate for discussion purposes...

Interesting read...Lets give a name to the "Hormone"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3834504/



USDA

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safet...eef-farm-table

Hormones may be used to promote efficient growth. Estradiol, progesterone, and testosterone (three natural hormones), and zeranol and trenbolone acetate (two synthetic hormones) may be used as an implant on the animal's ear. The hormone is time released and is effective for 90 to 120 days. In addition, melengesterol acetate, which can be used to suppress estrus, or improve weight gain and feed efficiency, is approved for use as a feed additive. Not all combinations of hormones are approved for use in all classes of cattle. Hormones are approved for specific classes of animals, and cannot be used in non-approved classes.

https://www.fao.org/3/x6533e/x6533e01.htm

5.1 Veal calves

In veal calves, hormone treatment may begin at a body weight of about 65 kg, the animals being slaughtered at about 170 kg. Implants of 20 mg oestradiol-17β + 200 mg progesterone in males and 20 mg oestradiol-17β + 200 mg testosterone in females resulted in a 20% increase in daily gain and 21% higher nitrogen retention in the period studied (14). In other studies, improvements of 10 to 12% in gain and 10% in FCE have been reported (15, 16, 17, 18). Nitrogen retention is about 70% in the very young veal calf, but decreases gradually to below 40% at the age of about 15 weeks. For ages of 10 to 15 weeks, the average conversion of feed protein to body protein is about 40%; this rate can be increased to about 60% by hormone treatment. The effective preparations were DES, oestradiol-17β, and the combination of TBA + oestradiol-17β (9). More recently, positive effects have been reported (19, 99) for zeranol alone (36 mg) and for zeranol (36 mg) + TBA (140 mg), with increases in nitrogen retention of the same order as for DES and E2 + TBA. When zeranol + TBA was implanted at the age of 56 days, the growth rate up to day 106 increased by 18% (19).

Its important to also understand that Hormones do in fact naturally occur in meats and that is going to vary..but its what makes it hard to determine whats naturally and whats man made response..

Endogenous hormones ( natural in animal)

hormones.jpg

[Vanman]

Here are a few pictures that my wife took today. You can see something going on on the dorsal and anal fins of a couple of the largest ones.

DSC_0858.jpg


DSC_0862.jpg


DSC_0864.jpg


DSC_0876.jpg

[brewmaster15]

Here are a few pictures that my wife took today. You can see something going on on the dorsal and anal fins of a couple of the largest ones.

DSC_0858.jpg


DSC_0862.jpg


DSC_0864.jpg


DSC_0876.jpg

Gary thats not from hormones in beefheart.. Its usually from an imbalance of nutrition. .. too much protein.. not enough minerals.. calcium is the usual culprit. It can also be caused by bad parasite load thats damaging the gut but that almost always goes hand in hand with loss of weight and appetite. It can also be from poor water quality and care which I know is not the case with you.



The good news is its fixable on your fish...

See here..

https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...rimming%20fins

Next we need to nail down where the deficiency is...your water may be too soft and missing something..again and easy Fix.

Btw.. your wife takes great pics... no more excuses now on posting .lol. and the fish otherwise look great.