Please help me save my lil buddy

[Lennie]

Hello fellow discus keepers,

Hope you are doing well.

Briefly, to talk about myself: It's Lennie. I have been keeping fish for over 15 years. I have a fishroom with 25 tanks. I would call myself experienced in the hobby, but sadly the stuff I have been through with the discus pair I got, caused me to face some issues that I have never *luckily* experienced before.

I am very lost about the situation and I need some help from you guys.

About my fish: I got me a confirmed pair of discus last year. 60x60x50cmh / 180 Liter tank for these two, named Marshall and Lily. Many sources and the guy I got them from kept recommending me to keeping them on a bare bottom tank with a light white background. I set the tank up this way but I have never enjoyed barebottom tanks so I quickly ended up turning it into a planted tank. The pair was constantly fed with frozen brine shrimp, beefheart and bloodworms by their previous owner. So they were extremely picky for everything else served, including live worms.

I've tried A LOT of stuff. Around 7 commercial foods with granules and flake options, FD/frozen foods, live white worms/earthworms and many more. They have always been bad at accepting any sort of food, even the ones that they are extremely picky about eating. Inactive, never looked happy and healthy.

Both of my discus had gill issues and they have been getting worse every day. I kept them mainly at 28C which was the temp the previous owner was keeping them at. I've tried different parameters from 6.0 ph very soft water to 7.5 medium hard water. Temp between 28C to 31C. Just hoped to see any positive outcome.

I have taken advices from my vet friend to use which meds and how. Sadly nothing we used worked at the end of the day. Mainly suspected gill flukes but I tried praziquantel, methylene blue, salt. I tried antibiotics for potential other issues affecting the gills. Nothing ever worked. One day, I found Marshall laying on its side in the day and sadly he didn't make it. I was so down and sad.

After another dose of praziquantel and final methylene blue bath, I moved Lily to a SA community tank of mine. She seemed happier in a community tank but that didn't last long. She is peppered, continuously worsening gill issues still, lots of mucus, never eating and going very skinny. BAsically she is dying in front of my eyes everyday and I can do nothing to stop it.

There is a guy here that is mainly focused on discus and their overall health and treatments. I talked to him by sending vids and he said likely Im probably dealing something like a severe gill rot and it is very unlikely to treat it no matter what I do.

In this video they seem to breathe fast but usually that is not the case. Tho, she does have this gill movement. They were put this tank when I resetted and turned their 180 Liter tank into a planted one from a barebottom tank. They didnt stay here long but completed a course of antibiotic there. That tank had one HOB, one sponge filter and one airstone for proper oxygenation.

https://youtube.com/shorts/AYOlVpZUq...g_eP5qiBnhA0bi


Lily in her community tank:
image.jpeg.e79649cbead9b73b792217e4ccd07154.jpg

Please note that she is much skinnier bad looking with lots of peppering and worsened gill issues rn. This picture was when she look a lil happy being a part of her new community tank but didnt last long.

I would appreciate any help.
It is late night here and I don't have a clear mind to check if I stated everything in detail. Please ask me further questions that I might have left unanswered potentially

[brewmaster15]

Hi Lennie,
We have a questionnaire that helps here...

Please complete this questionnaire if your fish are sick (copy and paste). The more details you can provide, the better we are able to diagnose and help you treat your sick fish.

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?


9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.

- temp _____

- ph _____

- ammonia reading ____

- nitrite reading ____

- nitrate reading ____

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

- RO water ____

10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.



12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.


13. What do you believe is the problem? ( many times hobbyists asking for help have already formed some opinions or sought help elsewhere. Being upfront here will save time and effort on the part of members trying to help.)

You have answered some of it but not all.. we need as much info as you can give here. And We need current images.

That planted tank is really not good for your discus and you really should get that fish into a bare bottom hospital tank for evaluation and treatment.

Al

[Iminit]

Unfortunately you should have listened to the seller. Bare bottom would have been better. Why get a confirmed pair? Should just leave the ph alone. Discus can adjust to ph. Messing with it will stress them or any fish. Next moving to a community didn’t help. Guessing all the medicating happened in a planted tank? Doubt any were effective. Needs to be in a qt tank now. Bare bottom is best for meds to be effective. Discus are like no other fish! They need clean water changed at least 50% twice a week. Can’t believe anything on Facebook!!

[Lennie]

Hello there,
Thanks for sharing the question list. I will explain the unanswered ones below:


Ammonia and nitrite 0, Nitrate<=20 or so. I used RO and enriched it. My tap reads 40 nitrate anyway.

I do not age my water. I have not observed any ph difference to this day once waited and aerated. I directly make my water changes with dosing prime just in case even when I use RO.

The tank was new but the filter was very established running for ages in another tank of mine. Had no cycling issues once this filter was introduced and tank was set. I have Sera test kit on hand to check parameters.

All the above mentioned problems existed and started when the tank was bare bottom. I moved to a planted tank as a change hoping it to make them feel more comfortable and safe. So I am not sure if it is the barebottom issue here. But I really don't know what else is

I hope I more or less responded to all other questions in the main paragraph above

I will try to take a pic soon. The tank lights are off right now

I can move her to a qt tank if needed. But at this point there is not much left to try in terms of medication I guess, other than stressing her further
Thanks again

[Lennie]

Unfortunately you should have listened to the seller. Bare bottom would have been better. Why get a confirmed pair? Should just leave the ph alone. Discus can adjust to ph. Messing with it will stress them or any fish. Next moving to a community didn’t help. Guessing all the medicating happened in a planted tank? Doubt any were effective. Needs to be in a qt tank now. Bare bottom is best for meds to be effective. Discus are like no other fish! They need clean water changed at least 50% twice a week. Can’t believe anything on Facebook!!

Because I wanted to keep a pair and maybe have a chance to see some babies? I have had many different type of fish and witnessed their breeding, fry caring and stuff. It is lovely. Discus raising their fry look unique and interesting. I dont understand the part why I shouldn't have a pair. I dont need them to breed really, but it would be nice if they decided to.

I started keeping them in a barebottom and all the symptoms and problems started appearing there so I don't think it is planted tank related. I'm not sure why using medicine in a planted tank should be ineffective unless I am deworming or keeping lights on/having tank rich on organics for sensitive medicine?

I am not on FB.

Btw, just a question, when I check your profile you seem to have a planted tank with substrate and keeping your discus in a community with other fish. I'm confused why you suggest barebottom to be better and planted tank not being ideal

[Iminit]

Lol those planted tank pics with substrate are old. Those fish all passed. Thread hear “I need help”. My tanks now are bare bottom with plants in pots.
And I’m sorry didn’t mean to sound mean. I never said you shouldn’t have a mated pair. I just asked why . If problems developed in a bb tank they’re not getting better in a planted tank . Thing is everything you know about other fish and planted tanks doesnt play into discus. Lots you need to know. The substrate can hold all sorts of things that are detrimental to discus health. Yes you can keep discus in planted tanks but first you need to know how to keep discus. Yes I do keep other fish with my discus. Dither fish. A school of something to have movement in the tank. This keep the discus from scattering when I walk by the tank. Also nice to look at . The others are all scavengers. Corys and SAE to eat whatever the discus miss. Bushy nose plecos and some ottos to eat some algae. But nothing that may be competition for the discus.

Thing with discus is you have to watch them make sure they’re eating and when eating gaining or keeping weight. You notice your discus losing weight you need to act. Needs to go into a qt tank and observed. Biggest thing is discus are not like other fish. Next breeding these guys is also not like other fish!

[Lennie]

Lol those planted tank pics with substrate are old. Those fish all passed. Thread hear “I need help”. My tanks now are bare bottom with plants in pots.
And I’m sorry didn’t mean to sound mean. I never said you shouldn’t have a mated pair. I just asked why . If problems developed in a bb tank they’re not getting better in a planted tank . Thing is everything you know about other fish and planted tanks doesnt play into discus. Lots you need to know. The substrate can hold all sorts of things that are detrimental to discus health. Yes you can keep discus in planted tanks but first you need to know how to keep discus. Yes I do keep other fish with my discus. Dither fish. A school of something to have movement in the tank. This keep the discus from scattering when I walk by the tank. Also nice to look at . The others are all scavengers. Corys and SAE to eat whatever the discus miss. Bushy nose plecos and some ottos to eat some algae. But nothing that may be competition for the discus.

Thing with discus is you have to watch them make sure they’re eating and when eating gaining or keeping weight. You notice your discus losing weight you need to act. Needs to go into a qt tank and observed. Biggest thing is discus are not like other fish. Next breeding these guys is also not like other fish!

Hello again Tom,

Sorry if I sounded rude too by any means. I have been fighting for these fish to get better for like 8 months trying my best asking lots of friends, experienced people, vet friend, ichthyologist friend…. but they never get better and I even lost one to this unknown thought to be so gill rot disease. So it makes me really down and sad.

I prepared a QT just like you suggested its barebottom( which is always the case for qt for me too)I set the temp to 29C, added an established filter. Waiting temp to equalize and ready before I move her there.
But I guess she is fighting for her last days if I just leave her to be observed. Adding the pics below. You may notice the water even got milky lately, it is because of extra mucus she constantly keeps producing. Same thing happened before all the time. I have been finding muchs production accumulation when the circulation was low with sponge filter.
All these abovementioned symptoms and issues remained in the barebottom tank so leaving it just for observation feels to risky as at this point she is skinny and stays a bit lop-sided. Im lost

Speaking of that I wonder if I should try malachite green/formaldehyde. Maybe it helps with anything related to the gill situation. Thats basically the only thing I didnt try and have on hand. And levamisole. I never tried levamisole too.

What do you think?

P.S: guess I gotta move to pc to share pics. Please find them attached below
Nvm, I can edit and share here now on pc

e9acc325-b3bb-4d7e-b1e3-fec990b47b9e.jpg
fd12a025-db95-4864-85ae-96ea22ff3f3c.jpg70a216ff-5c82-4d65-86b2-87d15c449199.jpge9acc325-b3bb-4d7e-b1e3-fec990b47b9e.jpg

[brewmaster15]

Hello again Tom,

Sorry if I sounded rude too by any means. I have been fighting for these fish to get better for like 8 months trying my best asking lots of friends, experienced people, vet friend, ichthyologist friend…. but they never get better and I even lost one to this unknown thought to be so gill rot disease. So it makes me really down and sad.

I prepared a QT just like you suggested its barebottom( which is always the case for qt for me too)I set the temp to 29C, added an established filter. Waiting temp to equalize and ready before I move her there.
But I guess she is fighting for her last days if I just leave her to be observed. Adding the pics below. You may notice the water even got milky lately, it is because of extra mucus she constantly keeps producing. Same thing happened before all the time. I have been finding muchs production accumulation when the circulation was low with sponge filter.
All these abovementioned symptoms and issues remained in the barebottom tank so leaving it just for observation feels to risky as at this point she is skinny and stays a bit lop-sided. Im lost

Speaking of that I wonder if I should try malachite green/formaldehyde. Maybe it helps with anything related to the gill situation. Thats basically the only thing I didnt try and have on hand. And levamisole. I never tried levamisole too.

What do you think?

P.S: guess I gotta move to pc to share pics. Please find them attached below
Nvm, I can edit and share here now on pc

e9acc325-b3bb-4d7e-b1e3-fec990b47b9e.jpg
fd12a025-db95-4864-85ae-96ea22ff3f3c.jpg70a216ff-5c82-4d65-86b2-87d15c449199.jpge9acc325-b3bb-4d7e-b1e3-fec990b47b9e.jpg

Im sorry but its not looking good for this fish at this point. The stomach is very sunken and its very thin. The gills are inflamed and the eyes are cloudy. This poor fish has been in decline for a very long time. Its times like this I really wish people came here sooner.

I would not use other medications.. they would probably just kill the fish in its weakened state. You can try using salt at. 1 tablespoon per 5 gals day 1 and day 2 increase it to 1 tablespoon per 1 gal water. That may help with the gill functioning and slime. Its possible the fish has an external parasite like oodinium but at this point its not strong enough to treat.

My gut reaction here is to give the fish a few days and if no improvement I would euthanize it. Im sorry.

[Lennie]

Im sorry but its not looking good for this fish at this point. The stomach is very sunken and its very thin. The gills are inflamed and the eyes are cloudy. This poor fish has been in decline for a very long time. Its times like this I really wish people came here sooner.

I would not use other medications.. they would probably just kill the fish in its weakened state. You can try using salt at. 1 tablespoon per 5 gals day 1 and day 2 increase it to 1 tablespoon per 1 gal water. That may help with the gill functioning and slime. Its possible the fish has an external parasite like oodinium but at this point its not strong enough to treat.

My gut reaction here is to give the fish a few days and if no improvement I would euthanize it. Im sorry.

Hello again.

As I mentioned above, Ive asked about this in multiple places, Ive talked to people with many experiences and academic careers/professions related to fish. Tried so many different approaches and medications. Talked to a reputable discus guy who is known to help fish discus related diseases. Ive been told my fish will die no matter what that day even.

And you are mentioning it like I put my discus in a bowl and left it there to die. “This fish has been in decline for a very long time”. This fish has been constantly tried to make it feel better by trying everything I can. This is just not okay to say when I tried a lot of stuff already. I am not even a native speaker and could not even have a chance to join here and ask. I just did following to a suggestion of my friend.

As attached above, you have direct access to a video of fish with exact symptoms mentioned right just out into a temporary planted tank above removed from the barebottom tankcouple days ago, where they already had the exact symptoms. That video belongs to september 4th or so.

I would appreciate if you can tell me what would be your type of treatment based on all these symptoms I have been stating and the video you see, and what’s your way of diagnosing. Because you neglected your fish way of behavior does not help, at all. And I am seeking for an answer of what would and could be the way to treat and what am I dealing with.

Thank you

[jwcarlson]

Lennie, I apologize for this being a bit of a rocky thread after pushing you this direction from another forum. I don't think anyone above is making any accusations, just simply making observations about the situation. And there might be a tinge of language barrier issues that are causing some undue conclusions. I know that you've worked to get this fish healthy for a long time from our conversations elsewhere, but not everyone has all of that history. I do not think that you'll find a better place for discus information than this forum. And more than anything, I hope that you can glean some information here that can help possibly guide one last shot at helping her out.

[bluelagoon]

How do you remove the nitrates from your tap water? and do you drink water straight from the tap? I can see that it's not great for drinking water at 40 ppm from the tap. I wonder if nitrates over time will damage internal organs or at least stress them enough to cause illness.

[Iminit]

Lennie. Here’s the thing. We’re just looking at this now we don’t know the past. No clue where you were getting your info. Funny thing even though academic and professional people were spoken to it’s still irrelevant. That fact is the state of your fish. Most vets know nothing about fish. Not many real professional people are involved in discus. Many here are as professional as you’ll find but they’re hobbiests. Thing with discus especially when bought big is they can be sick for a long time. Yours a pigeon blood will stay colorful till it dies. Many have no clue their fish is sick. Next there’s so much misinformation on the internet that when people notice their fish is sick they kill it with all the different meds they throw at it. Right now Als information is 100% on target. Can the fish be saved? Only time will tell. Only other thing I’d recomend is raise the temp to 86-90 and maybe spark its appetite. But even that could be a problem if what it has multiples in warmer water.

Next stop looking to add meds. First while in the bare bottom tank see what the fish is pooing out. What color it is. Try feeding freeze dried black worms or even live black worms if you can find clean ones. It’s been sick a long time.

[Lennie]

How do you remove the nitrates from your tap water? and do you drink water straight from the tap? I can see that it's not great for drinking water at 40 ppm from the tap. I wonder if nitrates over time will damage internal organs or at least stress them enough to cause illness.

We have an RO system followed by mineral additions installed and connected both kitchen for cooking purposes and water dispenser we use for drinking. It is not very common to use tap to drink here but people may cook with it, so do we sometimes.

That’s interesting, I did not know the potential harm of nitrate may cause. I may completely switch my cooking from “use tap its faster” to dont use tap

For fish tanks where I use tap, well I basically consider it as a fertilizer addition, I dose trace elements and potassium instead and dont buy anything with N in it. As my tanks are heavily planted with low stocks, I usually never see high nitrates even going as low as 10 at the end of the week.

[Lennie]

Lennie. Here’s the thing. We’re just looking at this now we don’t know the past. No clue where you were getting your info. Funny thing even though academic and professional people were spoken to it’s still irrelevant. That fact is the state of your fish. Most vets know nothing about fish. Not many real professional people are involved in discus. Many here are as professional as you’ll find but they’re hobbiests. Thing with discus especially when bought big is they can be sick for a long time. Yours a pigeon blood will stay colorful till it dies. Many have no clue their fish is sick. Next there’s so much misinformation on the internet that when people notice their fish is sick they kill it with all the different meds they throw at it. Right now Als information is 100% on target. Can the fish be saved? Only time will tell. Only other thing I’d recomend is raise the temp to 86-90 and maybe spark its appetite. But even that could be a problem if what it has multiples in warmer water.

Next stop looking to add meds. First while in the bare bottom tank see what the fish is pooing out. What color it is. Try feeding freeze dried black worms or even live black worms if you can find clean ones. It’s been sick a long time.

Hello again Tom,

I will just add salt and observe both of you recommended then
We don’t have blackworms in my country, Ive never seen them available really. Live worms other than white worms grindal worms and microworms, I never see available. I can try FD tubifex, live white worms, worms that I can collect from the garden, ocean nutrition’s discus balance red frozen food, live daphnia. None has ever been accepted until this day but I can try again

[brewmaster15]

Hello again.

As I mentioned above, Ive asked about this in multiple places, Ive talked to people with many experiences and academic careers/professions related to fish. Tried so many different approaches and medications. Talked to a reputable discus guy who is known to help fish discus related diseases. Ive been told my fish will die no matter what that day even.

And you are mentioning it like I put my discus in a bowl and left it there to die. “This fish has been in decline for a very long time”. This fish has been constantly tried to make it feel better by trying everything I can. This is just not okay to say when I tried a lot of stuff already. I am not even a native speaker and could not even have a chance to join here and ask. I just did following to a suggestion of my friend.

As attached above, you have direct access to a video of fish with exact symptoms mentioned right just out into a temporary planted tank above removed from the barebottom tankcouple days ago, where they already had the exact symptoms. That video belongs to september 4th or so.

I would appreciate if you can tell me what would be your type of treatment based on all these symptoms I have been stating and the video you see, and what’s your way of diagnosing. Because you neglected your fish way of behavior does not help, at all. And I am seeking for an answer of what would and could be the way to treat and what am I dealing with.

Thank you

Lennie,
Im sorry if you think I was accusing you of poor care.

When I said "Its times like this I really wish people came here sooner." It wasnt a condemnation of you but a frustration for me. As the forum's Owner my whole purpose here is to help people with their discus. Often times fish can be turned around if things are caught early. Sadly by the time we see the fish here its often too late. I have no idea who you talked to or got advice from.. I only know what I know and try to use that to help people.