My Nanay wild Greens ..Whirling Disease

[brewmaster15]

I've been interested in the Prion diseases almost since they were first identified. Not only is the incubation period long, it's development takes a long time, as well. It first presents as mild cognitive impairment. With you're fish it's like a switch was suddenly turned from off to on. Willie's fish indicate a strong genetic link. I wonder if your fish might have all been siblings.

Liz, Its possible I guess. One thing of Note... These are Nanay wild Greens from Peru. By most accounts that population all have a limited gene pool as they were either released or accidentally escaped into the Nanay depending on the story. I don't really buy the genetic link as it doesn't make sense based on what we know about discus distribution both domestic and wilds. I think if we had a genetic issue, it would need to be more widespread and its not. Willies fish being related doesn't mean the disease was genetic..it could also mean they were exposed to something even he wasn't aware of that acted as an intermediate host...maybe the host is a copepod, or snail..or cory catfish/pleco...who knows?

In my case the "switch" could have been simple transport stress.. from the Amazon to Wisconsin to CT in a matter of a few weeks. I am sure the water was different at all 3 sites, the food was different. The bacterias in the water were different. Though I think Prions are fascinating as a possibility, My gut leans more towards parasite like Myxobolus cerebralis. Why you may ask.. simply because unlike virus and Prion which we know of no cases in fish causing whirling symptoms like this, we have hard evidence that at least some fish are attacked by Myxobolus cerebralis. Its unlikely biologically that there aren't other fish attacked by that organism or parasites that act like it or are related to it. That makes it compelling to me as a smoking gun.

[LizStreithorst]

That sounds more likely to me, as well.

[For100]

Freddy Thanks. I know you had to deal with a tank disaster too recently.

Don’t remind me about it. 🤬
Not even close to be a fun experience. It makes you question what you know about this hobby not matter how long have you been into it.
Hope things turn around quickly for you.

[pitdogg2]

Easily my favorite wild Discus, This is terrible Al! Hopefully something good comes from it.

[brewmaster15]

Easily my favorite wild Discus, This is terrible Al! Hopefully something good comes from it.

Thanks Ike! Yes it was a pretty bad experience.

[bluelagoon]

I think too that it was a parasite. I've seen documentaries on parasites affecting the brain only or the heart for that matter. What ever documentary I was watching, it didn't kill the hosts right away. It looked like seizures to me.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

I am very sorry to hear this news. I have had this happen with a large purchase of Wilds years ago. I sent a few to the university of Florida and they found Crypto. I used a harsh drug which was commonly used to treat. I don't remember the name but I do remember losing more than a few after and during treatment. It seemed to take care of at least the symptoms but I didn't send any more fish to Florida to find out if things were clear.

[LizStreithorst]

Hi Kraig. The treatment was dimetidiazol. It did take care of the symptoms for a while but it didn't cure any of my fish. I had to toss them all out, sterilize my tanks and start over. John Nickelson says that it does cure Crypto if you catch it early enough.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Kraig. The treatment was dimetidiazol. It did take care of the symptoms for a while but it didn't cure any of my fish. I had to toss them all out, sterilize my tanks and start over. John Nickelson says that it does cure Crypto if you catch it early enough.

The research indicate that nothing on the market cures Cryptobia. I know Dimetronidazole was mentioned alot as a treatment but it does not cure Cryptobia Jubilans

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/VM077
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15154736/

Experimental treatments that may provide some positive results include dimetridazole or 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol,

https://eshalabs.com/cryptobia-iubilans/

So far, no treatment against cryptobiosis is known to eradicate the parasite completely, however eSHa HEXAMITA will reduce the number of parasites, prevents mass mortality and enables fish and their immune system to recover and cope with this parasite. Normally, fish live perfectly well with a low amount of Cryptobia.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...p&opi=89978449

Cryptobia iubilans in Cichlids 1
Ruth Francis Floyd and Roy Yanong 2

Treatment for a Cryptobia iubilans infestation is considered
more difficult, and current recommendations are based on
laboratory experimental trials. Part of the difficulty may
be that the parasite seems to have an intracellular stage.
Parasites are occasionally seen in phagocytic cells, called
macrophages, which are part of the immune system and
are supposed to destroy foreign materials by engulfing
them. Cryptobia seems to be able to live within these cells
rather than being destroyed by them. This can make it
difficult to treat Cryptobia because most drugs are not able
to penetrate the cell wall of a macrophage. Experiments run
at the Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory suggest that these
two treatment regimens may decrease the infection load: a)
a bath treatment with dimetridazole (80 mg/L for 24 hrs,
followed by a 80-100% water change, repeated daily for 3
days); or b) a bath treatment with 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol
(10 mg/L for 24 hrs, followed by a 80-100% water change,
repeated daily for 3 days).

Basically all fish with Cryptobia that are treated with what we have available are in effect , carriers, if they survive.

[gimaal]

First I wanted to thank Al and all those who have gone through a painful experience like this in the past. Reading your reports is gut-wrenching so I can only imagine how difficult it is for you to have gone through the devastation and report the details.

In reading past posts about this, I am inclined to agree that whirling isn't so much a disease but a symptom with many possible root causes, much the way the thinking about 'dropsy' has evolved over the years from disease to symptom with an array of causes. That said, given that cryptobia was detected and diagnosed in the past, is there a particular reason why it's not considered the culprit this time? Are the symptons different this time?

[brewmaster15]

First I wanted to thank Al and all those who have gone through a painful experience like this in the past. Reading your reports is gut-wrenching so I can only imagine how difficult it is for you to have gone through the devastation and report the details.

In reading past posts about this, I am inclined to agree that whirling isn't so much a disease but a symptom with many possible root causes, much the way the thinking about 'dropsy' has evolved over the years from disease to symptom with an array of causes. That said, given that cryptobia was detected and diagnosed in the past, is there a particular reason why it's not considered the culprit this time? Are the symptons different this time?

Every case of Cryptobia in Discus that I have come across, or others had diagnosed the symptoms are identical to Hexamita, but unlike Hexamita the fish didn't respond to Metronidazole. Whirling has never been associated with Cryptobia before. I'm not sure if the fish that Kraig had diagnosed that tested for cryptobia are an exception or how wilds respond. Cryptobia in adult discus doesn't cause acute death rapidly either. When I say these wild greens were 100% fine, I mean, 100%. Cryptobia as we know it in Discus really doesn't fit. There was no darkening, no loss of appetite, no off colored feces, no behavior changes until the whirling.

Cryptobia does have an intracellular stage which makes it hard to treat so I guess there is always the possibility that in the wild greens it somehow got into the brain. I would be really surprised though as there were no other symptoms.

If it is Cryptobia I would also expect my test discus to contract it and so far they haven't .

[LizStreithorst]

Your sacrificial lamb at least taught you that.

[brewmaster15]

Your sacrificial lamb at least taught you that.

Yes, and maybe we get some more info from them in time.

[gimaal]

Ok, thanks for the explanation. In some past posts whirling was equated with cryptobia--that's why I asked. Thanks for clearing that up.

[brewmaster15]

Ok, thanks for the explanation. In some past posts whirling was equated with crytobia--that's why I asked. Thanks for clearing that up.

No problem, Its a jumbled up mystery I am afraid.