mystery illness picking off my discus--need help

[katec113]

Hi all, I need help identifying what is wrong with my discus. In the past 6 weeks I have lost 2 discus to similar symptoms despite my best efforts (this was actually a breeding pair). It now seems that a third discus is struggling with similar symptoms and I'm afraid it may be heading in a similar trajectory.

*Please note: I have already contacted an aquatic veterinarian (CertAqV) for help identifying what is going on and I received a quote that is close to $1000, or about $500 if I only do maybe half the services needed to diagnose the issue-- this is far more than I am able to afford right now. So.. here I am asking for help from hobbyists who know more than I, because I've exhausted my resources and my brain and still have not solved the issue.

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Approx. 6 weeks ago I noticed my striated red panda discus was hiding near the bottom of the tank and thinning out/wasting. She eventually stopped eating, though this discus was finicky since the day I got her so I didn't initially freak out. She barely ate for months when I first got her which I attributed to her constant breeding/busy with eggs. I moved houses in July and had to re-set up the tank, she stopped breeding (ok by me) and began eating (but she really only ate freezedried tubifex (I KNOW NOW not to feed tubifex-- kicking myself) and blood worms -- she was acting fine until 6 weeks ago. But I'm thinking this move/tank re-setup in July may have been a trigger for issues. Over the course of two weeks she continued wasting/thinning, refused to eat. I treated with flubendazole (absolute wormer+) and she did not respond to it. I tried 50% h20 changes daily/every other day. She died after about two weeks.

Shortly after her death my blue cobalt discus began thinning and hiding. He had also been pale since the move in july and had some fin rot but I thought it was due to lighting changes and bullying from my turquoise discus. He hid 24/7 but continued to eat well, though he has been consistently bullied by my striated turquoise discus so I often fed him with a dropper to ensure he got enough to eat. He cont. thinning/wasting despite eating, cont. to pale, and eventually developed a lump?/2-5 mm bump/spinal curve? near his dorsal fin. He developed some open sores seeming to originate in his sensory pits (HITH?) with long white stringy mucus/fungus/pus? coming out of them (columnaris?). He began to darken/turn black. I did a methylene blue bath and treated with kanamycin medicated food for a week. He then turned completely black and died. I have frozen him in hopes a CertAqV could do a necropsy but Ive learned freezing may make it inconclusive.

My striated tourqouise discus developed what looked like HITH/widening of sensory pits and clamped gills, with one gill looking red/irritated from the outside. I did 50% water changes every other day and treated with metronidazole in food (began 4-5 days ago), he seems to be improving/better re. the HITH but gills still clamped. An angelfish in the same tank has some gill degeneration, I've had columnaris in a tank 5+ years ago so I thought maybe that was happening again with the gill stuff and the issues the cobalt discus had, so I treated the water with nitrofurozone and kanamycin. The turquoise discus's gill seems better/not as red/irritated but are still clamped.

*Now my leopard discus, who has been fine except for showing her "stress" bars since the move in July, is thinning (more subtly than the other two though), darkening, and sort of hiding/staying near the bottom with her nose pointed down at a 140/150 deg. angle. He slime coat seems thin/peeled off. She is still eating well.

*one more stressor: a angel pair in this tank began breeding, causing conflict in the tank around the time this began. I believe this is the primary stressor for the illness in the discus. The angelfish pair are being moved, a tank is cycling for them now.

Could it be columnaris? HITH/hexamita? fish TB/mycobateriosis? something fungal?


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

striated red panda discus: hiding at bottom, thinning/wasting, stopped eating, tiny white specks on body (like ich maybe), died

cobalt discus: hiding at bottom, thinning/wasting, fin rot (edges of fins), pale color, mild popeye in one eye, and then eventually turning black, sores/white zits with stringy white substance coming out of them, died

striated tourqouise discus: HITH/widening sensory pits, clamped gills, one irritated/red/sore looking gill (all improved some recently)

leopard discus: thinning out despite eating, turning dark, thin/absent slime coat, hiding at bottom, headstanding (slightly), mild fin rot


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Prazipro: 1 tsp/ 20 gal., one time, no change
Flubendazole (absolute wormer +): 0.6 grams, twice two weeks apart, no change
(1+ week in between)
IchX (malachite green and formalin): 1 tsp/10 gal., one time, behavioral improvement in striated red panda discus for 1 day
(1-2 weeks in between)
Kanamycin: medicated food with kanaplex and seachem focus with garlic guard for 1 week. Good improvement in fin rot.
Methylene blue bath (for cobalt discus): followed bath instructions on Kordon bottle, no change
(1+ week in between)
Nitrofurazone and kanamycin in h20: 3 gram nitro. for 75 g., 1 scoop of kanaplex/5 gal.
(this was 3 days ago, planning to redose in a couple of days)

water changes 50-60% daily/every other day this entire time.
Added an additional canister filter (fluval Fx2)
Have a TMC titan UVC sterilizer 15 watt, but not set up yet b/c of medications


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

-75 g., all fish in tank have been in the system for 1 year but tank was dismantled and reset-up when I moved in july 2023 (all live plants and filter media was kept in tank water during move)
-4 discus (down to 2 now) and 4 angelfish
-Discus: all about 1.5 y/o.
-Angelfish: three are 2.5-3 y/o, one is about 1 y.o.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

Up until these issues in the past 6 weeks, I changed about 50-60% of water and vacuumed gravel about 1-2 x /week
in past 6 weeks, water changes of about 50% every day/every other day

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tank ran in old house for about 5-6 months and once re-setup in this house, been running for 6 months. Not BB, have about 1-2 inch substrate w/ grain size in between sand and gravel.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

I don't age water. When moved to this house tap water read as 9 pH, so I used discus and neutral buffer to lower ph to what they were used to at old house 6.5 (now I know not to do this and it caused a phosphate build up that caused a diatom issue). I have not used buffers for 2 months and, oddly, my tap ph is down to 7 now.. maybe something to do with a new house?

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

seachem prime, added to tank at water change

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.

Tested last night:

- temp __85-86 deg.___

-KH __ 2 dKH

-GH __35 ppm__

- ph __6.8___

- ammonia reading _0 ppm_

- nitrite reading __0 ppm__

- nitrate reading __5 ppm__
- phosphate: __ 5 ppm__ (too high)

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water _I use tap water only___

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

new plants from buce plant added approx. 3 months ago. Plants were cleansed in a tap water and hydrogen peroxide mix prior to placing in tank

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

I feed a mix of stuff, not much of any but mixed together they get a good amount of food:
-frozen beefheart mix obtain from breeder (popular florida breeder, good reviews at the time, not sure now): 2-3 x/week
-hikari discus bio-gold: 1-2 x daily
-seachem nutridiet discus flakes with garlic: 1-2 x daily
-northfin cichlid formula pellets: 1-2 x daily
-hikari vibra bites: 1-2 x daily
-frozen brine shrimp: occasionally (1 x/ month)
(just in the last week: got discus chow from aquatic supplies plus/Al Sabetta, feeding 1-2x/daily)
(until 6 weeks ago I also fed hikari FD tubifex worms b/c that's basically all my red panda would eat. I do not feed tubifex anymore, have read not to)


12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

unfortunately have no photos of the two that died. Photos of the two still alive at the link below:

IMG_1657.jpg

https://imgur.com/a/iynecM8

here is a link to what the two discus looked like before we moved:

https://imgur.com/a/GKj79xA

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
Sorry you are having issues here. ..this is a complicated situation. Can I ask if these fish had any abnormal feces? When you say" getting thinner" how long did that go on? Did they lose their appetite.?

PH 9 is really high. To use buffers and pH down is not ideal..you probably get alot of precipitate.. can you use Ro water? Also with water like yours aging is probably something to consider.

Im really suspecting your issues are water related as everything started with the move..at least that what seems to be what you are saying.

Im also concerned you are using medications too much and not targeted here...to much meds makes matters worse. For now please hold off on any .

[Iminit]

You’re saying your tap was 9ph when you got there but the tap is now 7? This is tap 7 not tank.? Your gh and kh fit for 7. Maybe bad test for the 9? May pay now to move the 2 of them into a 30-40g qt tank by themselves an observe them. How they eat and what their waste looks like. May just be the angels are stressing them.

[katec113]

Hi,
Sorry you are having issues here. ..this is a complicated situation. Can I ask if these fish had any abnormal feces? When you say" getting thinner" how long did that go on? Did they lose their appetite.?

PH 9 is really high. To use buffers and pH down is not ideal..you probably get alot of precipitate.. can you use Ro water? Also with water like yours aging is probably something to consider.

Im really suspecting your issues are water related as everything started with the move..at least that what seems to be what you are saying.

Im also concerned you are using medications too much and not targeted here...to much meds makes matters worse. For now please hold off on any .

Hi -- thanks for the response and for reading that long, complicated post.
In answer to your questions:

As far as abnormal feces-- The red panda had white/clear stringy feces. I have tried to catch the two living ones pooping but have not been able to, but all poop around the tank looks normal/healthy.

When I say "getting thinner" I mean basically wasting away to skin and bones, the red panda this about 2-3 weeks, the cobalt it took about 2 weeks. The leopard discus is thinning now very slowly. The two that died: the red panda lost appetite and didnt eat for last 2 weeks of life; the cobalt never lost it's appetite and ate up until the day it died, but continued to waste away regardless. The two living (leopard and turquoise) are currently eating very well.

"PH 9 is really high. To use buffers and pH down is not ideal..you probably get alot of precipitate.. can you use Ro water? Also with water like yours aging is probably something to consider." -- I agree about the ph and know that about buffers now. The tap ph tested as 9 consistently for the first month we moved in, so I used buffers. When I realized that buffers cause issues and likely caused the diatom explosion in the tank, I re-tested the tap ph a couple months ago and it now consistently tests as 7. I have NO IDEA why it's different from July. The only thing I can think of is that the house is new construction. SO, since the tap ph is now consistently 7, I don't use buffers. I have not used buffers in 2 months. I can switch to RO if you think the water could still be the problem even though the ph is now 7?

"
Im really suspecting your issues are water related as everything started with the move..at least that what seems to be what you are saying." -- I agree, it does seem that the issues began when we moved to this house in July. But really the issues that led to the deaths seemed to start 6 weeks ago and took two weeks from first symptoms to kill each fish, that's why I was suspecting an illness.

About the medications-- I agree. I need to cool it. I panicked when my healthy fish just suddenly went so down hill. I will stop all med use for now.

[katec113]

You’re saying your tap was 9ph when you got there but the tap is now 7? This is tap 7 not tank.? Your gh and kh fit for 7. Maybe bad test for the 9? May pay now to move the 2 of them into a 30-40g qt tank by themselves an observe them. How they eat and what their waste looks like. May just be the angels are stressing them.

Hi thanks for the reply. Yes, strange right? When we moved in 7 months ago the tap pH in the new house consistently tested as 9 (I did repeat the test) but two months ago I tested the tap again and it now is consistently testing as 7. Maybe several consistent bad tests for the 9? I have zero idea. Even bought a new test kit.
I have a 20 g. I can move them to for quarantine, but my 30 g. is cycling for me to move the angel pair to.

[brewmaster15]

Where you are, is there a place that can test your water? Not a pet shop but a company that specializes in water testing. Theres a bunch of flags here on your water. Heavy metals in your water will do alot of what you have seen... the way your water went from 9 to 7 is a real red flag and new construction could mean work on pipes.

[Iminit]

Don’t know how you’re cycling it but I’d move the discus into that. If adding ammonia just empty the tank refil it and add some media from the 75. Change 50% water daily keep the temp at 85-86. I’m thinking worms and would treat with prazi-pro or whatever wormer you use. Eating and wasting away is usually worms.

[katec113]

Where you are, is there a place that can test your water? Not a pet shop but a company that specializes in water testing. Theres a bunch of flags here on your water. Heavy metals in your water will do alot of what you have seen... the way your water went from 9 to 7 is a real red flag and new construction could mean work on pipes.

I'm in east Durham, NC. This house is a new house but the neighborhood is not great and the water in central NC does have a bad reputation... We actually bought lead testing swabs for our vintage dishes bc of some health concern in us (humans) but the tests were negative for the dishes. It makes sense what you are saying. I now definitely want to get my water tested by a water testing company-- I'm not sure what to even google to find that, do you have any suggestions?
Also, would prime or API water conditioner neutralize/remove heavy metals? I know they say they do but I'm not sure if that's actually true?

[katec113]

Don’t know how you’re cycling it but I’d move the discus into that. If adding ammonia just empty the tank refil it and add some media from the 75. Change 50% water daily keep the temp at 85-86. I’m thinking worms and would treat with prazi-pro or whatever wormer you use. Eating and wasting away is usually worms.

I thought it was worms at first too, so I treated with fendendazole and then with prazipro and it did not help. I'm honestly a little hesitant to move them to quarantine b/c I worry about their stress levels since it seems that's was triggered this downturn. Do you think removing the breeding angel pair (and thus the primary stressor) from the tank and leaving the discus would be sufficient?

[fljones3]

Check the water as Al stated. Whenever there are problems, I always go back to fundamentals first — water changes, water quality. Since you moved it would be more imperative. I moved my tank once to my study which was next to a military complex that had a reputation of bad water. I never got my water right and eventually removed the tank. Not trying to discourage, just giving you another reason to check the water.

[jeep]

Where you are, is there a place that can test your water? Not a pet shop but a company that specializes in water testing. Theres a bunch of flags here on your water. Heavy metals in your water will do alot of what you have seen... the way your water went from 9 to 7 is a real red flag and new construction could mean work on pipes.

As someone who has delt with horrendous water issues this past Summer and well into Fall, I would follow this approach. At one point, my ph was over 14 (as determined by a digital ph meter). I lost many fish! I was forced to cut water changes back and age my water for 2/3 days with a high volume water pump, rather than the usual 24 hours. Even though my water appears to have returned to normal, the effects are still on going.

[Iminit]

Ok yes it’s best to test your tap water. Something I use is an undercounter filter. Bought 30+yrs ago at Home Depot. Some adapters to hook it up to my sink. Thing remover ammonia and heavy metals.FA6691BD-EAEA-439F-9458-5732BAB2C1D2.jpgAB51B2F0-8B5F-4A16-B6E1-4BF300BEAB01.jpg.
Yes I’d remove the angels. Last thing you want with discus is breeding angels.

[katec113]

Check the water as Al stated. Whenever there are problems, I always go back to fundamentals first — water changes, water quality. Since you moved it would be more imperative. I moved my tank once to my study which was next to a military complex that had a reputation of bad water. I never got my water right and eventually removed the tank. Not trying to discourage, just giving you another reason to check the water.

Thanks for you reply-- I agree, I'm thinking it must be the tap water now-- it honestly never occurred to me that the issues were related to the water because once the tap pH came down to 7 I thought it must be fine, but obviously there are things our home water tests don't test for. Also, our dog had some urinary issues/irritation beginning when we moved also and the vet recommended we give him filtered water and the issues went away... Also makes sense if it's the water b/c I feel like i've been so obsessive with the water changes, especially recently, and it just has not helped. I plan to bring a sample to a water testing lab

[katec113]

As someone who has delt with horrendous water issues this past Summer and well into Fall, I would follow this approach. At one point, my ph was over 14 (as determined by a digital ph meter). I lost many fish! I was forced to cut water changes back and age my water for 2/3 days with a high volume water pump, rather than the usual 24 hours. Even though my water appears to have returned to normal, the effects are still on going.

Thanks for you reply-- ph of 14 is crazy! I was thinking about this-- if I identify that it's the water, should I cut back on water changes until I figure out a more permanent solution? I have thought about aging water but we don't live in a big house and honestly most free space is take by a tank or a dog bed. I really don't have anywhere I could age it-- maybe if I got a big drum I could try to age it behind the house, but we don't have a yard. If I got an RO unit-- would this address the water issues? Thinking I could try half tap, half RO to avoid having to use a bunch of replacement additives. Would you recommend that or would you recommend using all RO water? The tap in my last house was good for discus, so no real experience with aging/RO/filtering/etc. I plan to take a sample of my tap water to an EPA certified lab to get tested soon.

[katec113]

Ok yes it’s best to test your tap water. Something I use is an undercounter filter. Bought 30+yrs ago at Home Depot. Some adapters to hook it up to my sink. Thing remover ammonia and heavy metals.FA6691BD-EAEA-439F-9458-5732BAB2C1D2.jpgAB51B2F0-8B5F-4A16-B6E1-4BF300BEAB01.jpg.
Yes I’d remove the angels. Last thing you want with discus is breeding angels.

Oh that's helpful-- that looks doable. It looks like you have it connected via a python? I have a million sink adaptors so I probably have something to fit a filter already. I'll look into this and/or an RO unit.
Definitely gonna remove the angels-- I'd separated my last breeding pair to stop them and just recently the male angel from that pair just suddenly decided to pick right back up with a new female. I only chose 5 fry of their second clutch to raise and they're doing well, but don't really plan to raise any more so may end up separating them too, but for now gonna stick them in a 30 g.