Herbal Fish Treatments

[bluelagoon]

A lot of countries have/are banning over the counter use of antibiotics to treat fish. I see that pet stores are selling herbal remedies. I know some of these plant extracts work well for humans and are sold at pharmacies; so some do have benefits. My question is. What are folks using these days to replace antibiotics? I still can buy Malachite green, Methylene blue, formalin and even (PP, which I won't use) in Canada. Other than that it's herbal extracts. How well does Bactocide 1 and Bactocide 2 and many others work?. I've heard many times that these were just snake oils especially were antibiotics are still in use.

[brewmaster15]

A lot of countries have/are banning over the counter use of antibiotics to treat fish. I see that pet stores are selling herbal remedies. I know some of these plant extracts work well for humans and are sold at pharmacies; so some do have benefits. My question is. What are folks using these days to replace antibiotics? I still can buy Malachite green, Methylene blue, formalin and even (PP, which I won't use) in Canada. Other than that it's herbal extracts. How well does Bactocide 1 and Bactocide 2 and many others work?. I've heard many times that these were just snake oils especially were antibiotics are still in use.

This question is overly broad Mervin. I do understand where it is coming from though.

The answer is not so simple because it depends on the pathogen in question.. and people who are desperate will try anything and believe anything. The problem here is people also wrongly assume that herbal= safe and it doesn't. Even if a herbs chemical properties impart some medicinal benefit, it needs to purified and standardized. Just the growing region alone can influence how much of a chemical is in a plant or fungi. I think people would be wise to be skeptical and ask for clinical proof that a herbal remedy works. There should be research by aquatic specialists if there is anything promising...why? Because there would be huge interest in aquaculture for a herbal remedy that works. I would also suggest skepticism on testimonials. Saying you had an issue and used such and such a product cured it is meaningless if you do not have a positive Identification of the pathogen.


I know this doesn't address the issue of lack of access to antibiotics , but I also believe alot of the use of these antibiotics is abused and over used and misused. Good Husbandry will go a long way in the health of the fish. I also think that we need to move away from treating a single sick fish...too often a single sick fish is treated in a tank of healthy fish. Sometimes the most human and responsible thing we can do is euthanize the sick fish..Its what I would do here.


al

[Iminit]

This is so true! For years we’ve been saying that all these fix things are snake oil. Melefix pelafix or whatever they are called. Instructions say change water daily or every 2 days. That’s pretty much what is curing so many peoples fish. Not the fix it’s all herbal bs. These Bactocide’s are just new versions. But one good report (probably put out there by the seller) and everybody is swearing how great they are. Facebook is full of people swearing these things are the best! They’re being recomended for any ailment. These and pp. Seems so many of the new discus keepers don’t want to do any water changes or research on discus.

[brewmaster15]

I just thought I would share some resources for anyone interested. Botany is one of my past times.

20240129_111601.jpg

I have shelves and shelves of plant books. Its not that I am against herbal remedies.. I have a very strong interest in them.. but I would not take them without seeing scientific proof they work and I certainly wont rely on them to cure something serious .. same goes for anything I put in my aquariums.

Al

[For100]

Mervin,

It is not the first time herbal/natural product are being promoted, just this time around we have some more restrictions around antibiotic and other chemicals. Having said that, Discus X is pushing hard their bactocide 1 and 2. To Al’s point, people selling it (more than one discus importer) claim it is better than antibiotics, BUT is based on anecdotical observations. In FB, I have seen claims of people successfully treating swim bladder issues with Bactocide 2 and nothing else (no epsom salt)

I guess if you have no other recourse because you don have access to antibiotics, you might as well give it a try.

My two cents.

[bluelagoon]

I personally have only used Melafix once many years ago and found that it didn't work well. I used to call it snake oil myself. I see today they are using more than Tea Tree extracts and are using other plants as well now. I haven't used plant extracts since for fish. Just thought I'd put it out there to see how many folks were using them and if it working/worked for them. Al, if folks euthanized every fish that came down with especially bacterial infections and had no antibiotics, that's a lot of dead fish and some species are very expensive; might you give them a try if you were unable to obtain antibiotics and why? Discus X is where I was reading the information and just thought I'd bring it up on SD to see how many were using herbal treatments. There's more on line that says it does work than the blogs that say it doesn't work according to observations. By the way I can still get illegal antibiotics from the States, but most folks won't do illegal activity.

[jeep]

It is not the first time herbal/natural product are being promoted, just this time around we have some more restrictions around antibiotic and other chemicals. Having said that, Discus X is pushing hard their bactocide 1 and 2. To Al’s point, people selling it (more than one discus importer) claim it is better than antibiotics, BUT is based on anecdotical observations. In FB, I have seen claims of people successfully treating swim bladder issues with Bactocide 2 and nothing else (no epsom salt)

I'm not disputing the claims because I have no experience with it yet, but I've specifically asked for peoples first hand experience using bactocide many times and so far no one has reported anything positive. Now I see claims that you can skip QT all together if you use bactocide. That's something I would never recommend!

Dirk Schlingman makes the same claims about his Discus Protektor.

[Iminit]

Well Brian people don’t want to do anything. So saying you don’t need to qt is just a sales gimmick. Being a sales gimmick they’re pushing this product just for sales. For that alone I’d be wary. Remember snake oil salesman lived off their sales speech.

[brewmaster15]

I personally have only used Melafix once many years ago and found that it didn't work well. I used to call it snake oil myself. I see today they are using more than Tea Tree extracts and are using other plants as well now. I haven't used plant extracts since for fish. Just thought I'd put it out there to see how many folks were using them and if it working/worked for them. Al, if folks euthanized every fish that came down with especially bacterial infections and had no antibiotics, that's a lot of dead fish and some species are very expensive; might you give them a try if you were unable to obtain antibiotics and why? Discus X is where I was reading the information and just thought I'd bring it up on SD to see how many were using herbal treatments. There's more on line that says it does work than the blogs that say it doesn't work according to observations. By the way I can still get illegal antibiotics from the States, but most folks won't do illegal activity.

Mervin realistically, Most fish in a well maintained tank don't get sick to the point of needing an antibiotic. Of course theres always exceptions but when that happens, rarely have the fish been saved by antibiotics.. Just read the disease board over the years. why would I euthanize a sick fish here? because its risk to my other fish. It may sound cold, but I won't try and treat a sick axolotl here...same reason. And I won't treat a sick Hen from my flock. These sick individuals pose a risk to my healthy stock. Yes its expensive to cull a sick fish in a tank..but its potentially far more dangerous not to.

might you give them a try if you were unable to obtain antibiotics and why?

Mervin, I do not add anything to my critters food or water without knowing what it is. Its like the "yellow Powder" that was sold for years from overseas as an antibiotic and still is.. no ingredient, just a "use this for bacterial infections, it works on everything" and People did it...did it help?.. who knows. You don't know whats in it nor do you know what was being treated.

Here is the problem with untested herbal remedies.. They are untested by a laboratory, and don't undergo the same scrutiny as antibiotics.

Big deal right?Its herbal so its safe to try,right? Here is a real but hypothetical example. I can't get dewormers any more. So I do some reading and come up with a herbal solution.. I can use a common Tree, Butternut and walnut. This stuff is awesome. According to Peterson's field guide to medicinal plants this stuff is great. Native Americans used it for wounds to stop bleeding, it contains a known antiseptic called juglone and this also has anti tumor properties. Add to it the oil from the nuts was used to treat tapeworms and is anti-fungal . Incredible I think...I bet others would pay for this stuff. Especially if they are as desparate as I am. And so Dr.Juglan's All Natural Dewormer and Anti-Everything is born. (Juglan is the Genera name for the trees..sweet marketing idea right?) Everyone starts using it and selling it for aquarium use but does it work? who knows? Maybe at a certain dose it might. Maybe at a certain concentration the active compounds might. Juglone really is an amazing compound. Further research, real research and hard science ,shows it has antibacterial , antiviral, anti-fungal, anti-tumor, Insecticidal, anti-protozoan properties. Its a wonder compound that would be the coolest herbal remedy for fish. Cha-ching cha-ching $$$$$$$$


But what I can tell you definitively is at a certain concentration its deadly to fish and its herbicidal(bummer if you have a planted tank I guess). Oddly that field guide doesn't mention it because its based on herbal remedies for HUMANS..Not fish. So how do I know its toxic to fish.. It was used to catch fish and still is. It stuns /kills them.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/su...k-walnut-tree/

https://ask2.extension.org/kb/faq.php?id=832052

oh and get this, since the product wasn't researched on fish, no one knew that pH affects the toxicity to fish. Bummer if you have a high pH aquarium.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...T%3E2.0.CO%3B2

Other info

https://www.plantedtank.net/threads/...ftwood.498969/


Not something I would try in my fishtanks.. Funny thing is some do.. Leaves have less toxins than husks, but the whole plant has varying amounts of Juglone

https://aquaplantscare.uk/shop/premi...walnut-sticks/

Walnut leaves

are rich in vitamins, flavonoids (derivatives of quercetin and kaempferol, hyperoside), phenolic acid (caffeic acid, p-coumaric acid), carotenoids, triterpene, as well as in mineral salts – calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and copper. Walnut leaves are also a good source of tannin (approximately 4-5% in one leaf) and of 1,4,5-trihydroxy naftaleno–4-beta-D-glucoside. One leaf also contains from 0.2 to 0.04% of volatile oil (which comprises about 40 different compounds, from which about 25% make sesquiterpenes) and up to 1.3% of ascorbic acid. Walnut leaves have antibacterial and anti inflammatory properties. They can be used as natural antibiotics for shrimps – it has been shown that the leaves have an effect on a number of different types of bacteria and fungi.

Walnut also has a negative allelopathic effect on other plants. It has been proven that an extract from dried walnut leaves contains a range of allelopathic substances from which the most important are flavonoids and kaempferol.
Usage

Walnut leaves are an ideal supplemental food for shrimps. It’s recommended to give small quantities 2-3 times a week.

People will try anything. so to answer your question Mervin..No I would not try an herbal remedy for an illness in my fish,



The miracle herbal compound...real science
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...22.999059/full

subnote... allelopathic substances

In plant-plant interactions, allelopathy is generally used to denote the process by which plants release phtyotoxic compounds (allelochemicals) in the soil environment, resulting in a harmful effect on neighboring plants. Both crops and weeds have been found to contain compounds that can be considered allelopathic.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...es/allelopathy

[bluelagoon]

I'm well aware of the many plant extracts used for medicine and some can be very toxic indeed. Being a med nurse for last 20 years, I've seem many plant extracts used over the years; for skin, heart, eyes just to name a few body parts. Just wanted to hear what folks on SD thought and if they've used them to treat fish and with or without success. I thought it might be an interesting topic. I agree AL a lot of problems especially bacterial infections in fish do come from poor husbandry.

[brewmaster15]

I'm well aware of the many plant extracts used for medicine and some can be very toxic indeed. Being a med nurse for last 20 years, I've seem many plant extracts used over the years; for skin, heart, eyes just to name a few body parts. Just wanted to hear what folks on SD thought and if they've used them to treat fish and with or without success. I thought it might be an interesting topic. I agree AL a lot of problems especially bacterial infections in fish do come from poor husbandry.

Lol..Never implied anything about your background Mervin. Just sharing my views. It is an interesting topic and some people on SD have posted what they thought.. I know I did,

Seriously though. I'm not against Herbal remedies, Many many medications had their start with plant, fungus and bacterial compounds that showed some efficacy. But I do have a problem with herbal remedies that aren't scientifically tested, standardized and refined. If theres a Herbal remedy for something and "it works":, it need to be validated scientifically and needs to be standardized and tested. Ideally if its target audience is fish it should be tested on fish by a real lab.That to me is common sense.

I understand desperation. What I don't understand is why people will spend $100's to $1000s of dollars on their Discus and other Fish and then put them through a russian roulette of chemical cocktails, poisons, oxidizers and Herbal whatevers. It makes no sense to me, and yet the Hobby is full of this. A little common sense goes a long way.

al

[bluelagoon]

Lol..Never implied anything about your background Mervin. Just sharing my views. It is an interesting topic and some people on SD have posted what they thought.. I know I did,

Seriously though. I'm not against Herbal remedies, Many many medications had their start with plant, fungus and bacterial compounds that showed some efficacy. But I do have a problem with herbal remedies that aren't scientifically tested, standardized and refined. If theres a Herbal remedy for something and "it works":, it need to be validated scientifically and needs to be standardized and tested. Ideally if its target audience is fish it should be tested on fish by a real lab.That to me is common sense.

I understand desperation. What I don't understand is why people will spend $100's to $1000s of dollars on their Discus and other Fish and then put them through a russian roulette of chemical cocktails, poisons, oxidizers and Herbal whatevers. It makes no sense to me, and yet the Hobby is full of this. A little common sense goes a long way.

al

Couldn't agree with you more. Just that I see so much of it now and even with well known people selling discus for some time now saying it does treat (bactocide is the one that would have heard from folks that have used it). Jeep Brian, says he heard from others who have used it and it didn't work; that was a help. In another thread on here somewhere he also states that he heard bactocide had some promise for a bladder issue.

[For100]

Yes Mervin, I read it cures swim bladder infections. I mean “claims”. I hope I don’t have to test it myself.

[brewmaster15]

On SimplyDiscus...

https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...-contamination

al