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Thread: Tiger Panda Help please

  1. #1
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    Default Tiger Panda Help please

    Well ... my first issue since getting my fish 2 weeks ago. Concerned about my Tiger Panda. Since I have had it, it has always been breathing faster than the others. Seems to predominantly breathe on one side, but have seen at times use both sides or switch sides. Actually a few other do the same, switching breathing sides but not a noticeable as the Tiger Panda. It is eating FDBW, swims around at times with the others but now is hanging out alone towards the top corner up front. Reason I am posting today is I notices a long thin clearish poop coming out of it approx 3 inches long. I was adding salt (1 tbsp/10 gal) for the first week but have stopped that currently. Here is a pic of the poop as well a video link showing the breathing.

    poop.jpg

    Link of video:
    https://youtube.com/shorts/i-XsHpLqM...PcmEfK-_OXC5RJ

    DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


    Problem

    1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
    Issue explained at beginning of post


    2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
    Fast breathing only mostly using 1 side but will switch sides from time to time. Long stringy clearish poop


    3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
    None - was adding salt the 1st week I had them but have stopped.


    Tank/Water

    4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
    80gallon tank, 8, 4-4.5" mixed discus


    5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
    Did 50% every day the first week, doing 50% every other day currently


    6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
    2 months, super thin PFS substrate (fish can actually blow it away to the bottom when eating). Depth is less than 1/8"


    7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
    Age water in 44 gal brute for 24 to 48 hours. No PH swing. Added 1 cup crushed coral to filter to stabilize PH. Noticed it was dropping in tank slightly between WC. Since adding coral Im not seeing any PH swing in tank.


    8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
    Prime added to aged water 5 min prior to pumping it to the tank. Use 1 capful


    9. Parameters and water source;

    Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


    - temp ___86__

    - ph ___7__

    - ammonia reading __0__

    - nitrite reading __0__

    - nitrate reading __5__

    What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

    - well water ____

    - municipal water __100%__

    - RO water ____


    10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
    NO


    11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
    Feed 2X per day (morning/evening) Feed Al's FDBW. 1 cube per feeding. Have eaten 2 cubes but 1 cube seems enough as they look fat after and feeding frenzy slows.



    12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

    I hope someone can shed somone light on this for me as what I need to do. I have invested a lot in this hobby and want to be successful at it long term. Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Quote Originally Posted by fishy_jim View Post
    Well ... my first issue since getting my fish 2 weeks ago. Concerned about my Tiger Panda. Since I have had it, it has always been breathing faster than the others. Seems to predominantly breathe on one side, but have seen at times use both sides or switch sides. Actually a few other do the same, switching breathing sides but not a noticeable as the Tiger Panda. It is eating FDBW, swims around at times with the others but now is hanging out alone towards the top corner up front. Reason I am posting today is I notices a long thin clearish poop coming out of it approx 3 inches long. I was adding salt (1 tbsp/10 gal) for the first week but have stopped that currently. Here is a pic of the poop as well a video link showing the breathing.

    poop.jpg

    Link of video:
    https://youtube.com/shorts/i-XsHpLqM...PcmEfK-_OXC5RJ

    DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


    Problem

    1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
    Issue explained at beginning of post


    2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
    Fast breathing only mostly using 1 side but will switch sides from time to time. Long stringy clearish poop


    3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
    None - was adding salt the 1st week I had them but have stopped.


    Tank/Water

    4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
    80gallon tank, 8, 4-4.5" mixed discus


    5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
    Did 50% every day the first week, doing 50% every other day currently


    6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
    2 months, super thin PFS substrate (fish can actually blow it away to the bottom when eating). Depth is less than 1/8"


    7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
    Age water in 44 gal brute for 24 to 48 hours. No PH swing. Added 1 cup crushed coral to filter to stabilize PH. Noticed it was dropping in tank slightly between WC. Since adding coral Im not seeing any PH swing in tank.


    8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
    Prime added to aged water 5 min prior to pumping it to the tank. Use 1 capful


    9. Parameters and water source;

    Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


    - temp ___86__

    - ph ___7__

    - ammonia reading __0__

    - nitrite reading __0__

    - nitrate reading __5__

    What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

    - well water ____

    - municipal water __100%__

    - RO water ____


    10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
    NO


    11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
    Feed 2X per day (morning/evening) Feed Al's FDBW. 1 cube per feeding. Have eaten 2 cubes but 1 cube seems enough as they look fat after and feeding frenzy slows.



    12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

    I hope someone can shed somone light on this for me as what I need to do. I have invested a lot in this hobby and want to be successful at it long term. Thanks in advance.


    Jim,
    I believe your fish has internal parasites.. ..
    It can be one or both of these...

    https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...hexamita.shtml

    https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...ematodes.shtml

    Both are possible and are two of the most common issues with discus.

    I would start with the protozoan hexamita.. but often this goes Hand in Hand with capillaria.
    The article I linked on Hexamita is a bit outdated on dose concentration. If you search "metronidazole " on the forum and "levamisole" it should give you a good back ground to proceed.

    Though not as serious as some infections, this isnt something you want to wait to deal with.

    Hth,
    Al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-04-2024 at 05:41 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Jim,
    I believe your fish has internal parasites.. ..
    It can be one or both of these...

    https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...hexamita.shtml

    https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...ematodes.shtml

    Both are possible and are two of the most common issues with discus.

    I would start with the protozoan hexamita.. but often this goes Hand in Hand with capillaria.
    The article I linked on Hexamita is a bit outdated on dose concentration. If you search "metronidazole " on the forum and "levamisole" it should give you a good back ground to proceed.

    Though not as serious as some infections, this isnt something you want to wait to deal with.

    Hth,
    Al
    OK ... crap!!! ... Do I need to give both medications or start with just one of them ? I assume I can and should treat the whole tank as all the fish are new? Should I go back to adding table salt or should I do Epsom till I can get the medication? Where do you recommend to get the medication? Sorry for all the questions, I hope I can stop this issue.

  4. #4
    Registered Member seanyuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Best prices for Metronidazole is from Jehmco

    https://www.jehmco.com/html/medications.html

    As for other medications try Dena Edwards @ Everything Aquatics

    https://everythingaquatic.net/product/levamisole/
    Grasshopper
    Francis

  5. #5
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Quote Originally Posted by fishy_jim View Post
    OK ... crap!!! ... Do I need to give both medications or start with just one of them ? I assume I can and should treat the whole tank as all the fish are new? Should I go back to adding table salt or should I do Epsom till I can get the medication? Where do you recommend to get the medication? Sorry for all the questions, I hope I can stop this issue.
    Jim luckily these kinds of issues are treatable so don't panic. Theres a good likihood most discus carry parasites like these and never show a symptom. Immune systems often keep things incheck.. but the process of shipping and receiving fish can stress fish out and some fishes immune system get over whelmed. ..its the same thing that happens to people really.

    Start with metro.. I would treat the whole tank . My suggestion is 10 days at 500 mg per 10 gals. Jehmco.com is where to go to get your metro in bulk. When treating.. do large daily water changes and redose metro after the water change.

    Also.. dont rush and panic.. keep a level head and dose when you get the medications. This isnt the kind of a problem that you need to rush on.
    AquaticSuppliers.comFoods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  6. #6
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    As a side note that article mentions dosing in the food.. since the fish are eating you might want to make a medicated feed.. its more effective than baths... alternatively you can soak the fdbw in metro /water before dosing
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-04-2024 at 09:28 PM.
    AquaticSuppliers.comFoods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    As a side note that article mentions dosing in the food.. since the fish are eating you might want to make a medicated feed.. its more effective than baths... alternatively you can soak the fdbw in metro /water before dosing
    Ok - thanks Al !! Hopefully I can have some overnighted so I can start the meds Tuesday. One laid more eggs again tonight too and the blue diamond came right behind it and said .. no kids for you. Had itself a little snack. I will let you know how the metro goes. Thanks for the help!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    The metro arrived today from JEHMCO. When I was talking to Jeane on the phone I said I wanted to order some metro. She then said, ah ... discus owner .... LOL. Anyways, I was able to get them to eat the FDBW that I soaked in some tank water and sprinkled a pinch on the food and let it sit a bit. I believe the Panda with the stringy poop ate some as well as all the others, that's good. I did a WC and then dosed the tank 500mg/10g. Got a few questions on this:

    1 - how long does it normally take to work? I guess I will know by the poop?
    2 - will the metro also help with the fast breathing out of one side?
    3 - if the breathing doesn't normalize, what do I need to do about that?

    Thanks !!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Jim,
    Metro can take several days to start to work... keep soaking the fdbw in it and dose tank daily for 10 days

    If by then its not recovered then its time to re-evaluate. Don't stop dosing short of the 10days even if fish gets better .

    Metro will not help with the breathing that could be causee by several things. Gill flukes is one but gilldamage ftom ammonia burns or bacteria is another, as is damage from a previous illness or treatment in which case that usually doesn't heal . its really hard to tell . I would suggest focusing on the metro now. .. that one fish breathing hard out of a gill may benefit from a Salt dip. That can be done while the metro is being dosed.

    Info on salt is here.. You can use tablesalt and 5 gal bucket.

    https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...net/salt.shtml
    AquaticSuppliers.comFoods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Jim,
    Metro can take several days to start to work... keep soaking the fdbw in it and dose tank daily for 10 days

    If by then its not recovered then its time to re-evaluate. Don't stop dosing short of the 10days even if fish gets better .

    Metro will not help with the breathing that could be causee by several things. Gill flukes is one but gilldamage ftom ammonia burns or bacteria is another, as is damage from a previous illness or treatment in which case that usually doesn't heal . its really hard to tell . I would suggest focusing on the metro now. .. that one fish breathing hard out of a gill may benefit from a Salt dip. That can be done while the metro is being dosed.

    Info on salt is here.. You can use tablesalt and 5 gal bucket.

    https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...net/salt.shtml
    Thanks Al, in terms of how much salt to use, that article says PPM measurements. How do I determine that amount if using a 5 gal bucket? I do have a way to measure specific gravity as I also keep a reef tank. If so, what would be a good specific gravity amount to shoot for doing a salt dip?

    Thanks

  11. #11
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Quote Originally Posted by fishy_jim View Post
    Thanks Al, in terms of how much salt to use, that article says PPM measurements. How do I determine that amount if using a 5 gal bucket? I do have a way to measure specific gravity as I also keep a reef tank. If so, what would be a good specific gravity amount to shoot for doing a salt dip?

    Thanks

    Jim you basically want to Dip the fresh water fish into a marine tank concentration..


    effects of salt on fish are determined both by salt concentration and duration of exposure. Seawater contains 3 percent salt by weight; this is equivalent to 30 parts per thousand (ppt) or 30,000 parts per million (ppm). Some parasitic infestations of freshwater fish may be effectively eliminated by dipping fish in a seawater solution for 30 seconds to 10 minutes, depending on the species.



    Its been 35 years since I had a Marine tank so double check this..
    From the web..

    Screenshot_20240207_083542.jpg

    Be warned.. the fish will "rollover" and look dead .. once that happens no matter how much time has gone by.. put it into the fresh water tank quickly. It will look beat up a bit but will snap back fine.
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-07-2024 at 09:39 AM.
    AquaticSuppliers.comFoods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  12. #12
    Registered Member seanyuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    just sharing Dr. Ruth Francis Floyd spoke on disease management in the aquarium at the Minnesota Aquarium Society on Thursday, April 3, at 7 PM (Central) 2023
    Salt by Dr Floyd

    One gallon x 30 PPT X 3.8 =114 gm

    10 gallons x 30 PPT x 3.8 =1140 gm


    Parasites control gallons x 3 PPT x 3.8 = 114 gm

    IMG_6266.jpg

    IMG_0744.jpg
    Grasshopper
    Francis

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Well folks - this is getting frustrating. Here is an update of what's going on and where I am now with this.

    2 weeks ago I started metro in an attempt to help the Panda with its stringy poop issue. At the time it was eating but small amounts. I was able to do this for 7 days but then had to go out of town. While I was away for 4 days I had my son dose the tank with API General Cure. The fish actually pepped up some and also that medication tool care of its breathing heavy and only on one side. It had been doing that since day 1 having the fish so I was happy about that. It now breaths normal using both sides. I am assuming that the prazie is what helped the gill/breathing issue. 2 weeks back I did a salt dip on that fish till it rolled and then put it back in the DT. It handled that procedure with no issue. I also recently had a water issue where I needed to wait a few days for the water lines to clear due to some repairs done in my neighborhood. That is now all clear and ready to resume my WC schedule.

    SO, jump ahead to today. When getting back from being away 4 days (my son fed FDBW 1x each day and dosed the API General Cure for me) I came back to the fins on the Panda ragged on the ends. I see no fungus just ragged edges. Also, now that fish won't eat. It stays to itself at the top but will socialize when the other fish approach it. It has been about 1 week since I have seen it eat anything. All my other fish are doing great, it's just this one guy (or girl) that is being a stick in the mud. Seeing the metro didn't seem to do anything, I then did a Levamisole treatment Thursday and plan to do a large WC today and then dose again in 7 days. Today I am still seeing the poop issue on the Panda as well as the ragged fins. Also every so often I see what looks like him/her twitching its tail, almost like a vibration. Also on Thursday night, I sucked ALL the sand out so now Im totally BB. I only had a super thing layer in the tank so it was very easy to remove. Im hoping that will help some to get the fish through this. What should I do now? Should I just do large daily WC for a bit and see what happens? Do I do another round of metro, is there another med I should try, do another salt dip? Any advice appreciated. Below are some pics of what I'm talking about. FYI - the poop pic was taking this morning.

    20240224_075342_resized.jpg

    20240224_075515.jpg

    20240224_080327_resized.jpg

  14. #14
    Platinum Member Jandiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Hey Jim,

    I'm not sure I have good answers for you but do feel your pain. I also have one fish that shows the white stringy poop syndrome, which was likely triggered by an unexpected temp drop that went unnoticed for 10 hours or so. One thing that helps me a lot is to look at the excrement under a microscope. That can definitely help in determining any internal parasite issues. You can see pictures of what I am finding in my tank journal thread (just posted today). These pics are shot with an iphone by holding it above one of the eyepieces. Just a thought.

    I am also thinking that you have gone through quite a regiment of medicating the tank. All good things in my opinion. The API general cure is a combination of prazi, Metro and furan 2. So there might be somewhat of a repeat there on the chemicals you had already been using. I am curious to hear what the cause of the fin burn might be. The forum experts will definitely have guidance on that.

    Cheers and good luck!!!!

  15. #15
    Silver Member Iminit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tiger Panda Help please

    Well my suggestion is it’s time to move this fish into its own tank. If going to continue medicating don’t in a small tank and just this fish. The other havnt shown any problems. Move this fish and take care of it by itself. Start by raising the temp and add a tbs of salt per 10g and change water daily. See how the fish reacts to that. Lower the lights in the tank. More salt can be added if needed as you go. This keeps the other fish from getting the meds they don’t need and makes it cheaper on you for meds.

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