Sick Discus & Need Antibiotics (PP Treatment did not work)

[32Bit_Fish]

Hi All,

Happy Friday! I know this is all my fault. I wanted to try my luck for the second and my luck ran out.
Added two new discus into my tank without quarantine. The fish came from the same source as the first batch I purchased a few weeks ago. Fish were all look fine and healthy in seller's tank. I don't have a quarantine tank, so I proceed added the new fish to my tank. A 40G BB tank with currently 5 discus (size range from 3 to 6"). The fish were scratching against the object in the tank and clamped fins. So I treated the tank with PP for 5 hours. 80% w/c before and after the PP treatment. Fish are not showing significant improvement after the PP treatment yesterday. One large fish still lay on his/her side at the bottom of the tank while other one hanging at the top.


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
Fish lay on their side at the bottom of the tank. Breathing is slightly faster than usual. Fish somewhat look dark. Not eating and not swimming. Issue started 3 days after added two new fish without quarantine them.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Turning dark, not eating and clamped fins. No abnormal looking poop. One large fish lay on his/her side at the bottom of the tank. Another one head up hanging at the top of the tank.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
PP treatment for 5 hours with only air stone in the tank yesterday.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
40 gallon breeder (BB) and a few months old. However, the filters have been running for couple of years. Five discus size range from 3" to 6".


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
50-60% w/c every other day. w/c increased to 75% every other day after added two new fish.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
See my answer to question #4 above.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
I age my water with heater, air stone & HOB filter in the tank. I age them at least 36 hours before using them. No PH swing. My tap water PH is 7.2. The aged water has the same PH level of tap water.


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
Prime powder and API Tap water conditioner


9. Parameters and water source; I live in Nassau county, NY

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp: 85 F

- ph: 7.2

- ammonia reading: 0

- nitrite reading: 0

- nitrate reading: usually under 10

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water 100%

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
Yes, added two new discus without quarantine. Both fish were look healthy and from the same source


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can. Pellets & Flakes early in the morning. Frozen blood worm and brine shrimp at noon, beef heart mix in the afternoon. Feed 3 times a day



12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
Yes, pics attached


13. What do you believe is the problem? ( many times hobbyists asking for help have already formed some opinions or sought help elsewhere. Being upfront here will save time and effort on the part of members trying to help.)

Some of them were scratching against objects in the tank, clamped fins and inactive. I believe they have external parasites, fluke and bacteria infections. But I am not sure now as PP did not cure them completely. I thought PP will kill all external bacteria, parasites and fluke. I hope they don't virus. I am thinking treating the tank with antibiotic will be the next step. What do you think?

[brewmaster15]

I don't want to come across unsympathetic here as it really is a terrible thing to deal with. You sound like you understand the quarantine issue now so I will leave it at that. Quarantine isnt something you want to skip..sooner or latter this is what happens if you do.

PP isnt the cure all so many think it is. It doesn't kill everything and definitely not in one 5 hr treatment. Im sorry but what ever you heard about PP is wrong.

Additionally theres the question of how much you used to initially dose. Did you measure it or use the "add enough ti make the water pink" method. I also see you use "Prime powder and API Tap water conditioner"? These actually react with Pp and neutralize it. PP was really not a good treatment here. Potentially it makes it worse because it removes the fishes slime coat.. the number one line of defense it has against bacteria and virus...and it chemically burns gills which causes inflammation at a time when you don't want impairs damaged gill tissue.

My advice is add salt to the tank at a rate of 1 level tablespoon per 1 gal water. ..do daily large water changes and replace the salt you remove. Do this for the next week. Odds are this is viral and not parasite... if the fish start sliming up and shedding mucous that could be from an external bacteria thats taking advantage of the weakened fish.. if that happens an antibiotic like nitrofurazone may help... but most of the time the salt and lots of clean water and time is alls you need.

Hth
Al

[brewmaster15]

When did you introduce the fish and how long until they got sick?

[32Bit_Fish]

When did you introduce the fish and how long until they got sick?

I added the two new fish into the tank in late evening on Sat 2/3/24. The fish started showing symptoms in afternoon of 2/7/24.
Do I use API aquarium salt of Kosher salt?
For antibiotics, which one is better nitrofurazone and Maracyn 2? Are both treat same disease?
Could you please elaborate why salt needs to be used in this case? Does salt kill virus?

[brewmaster15]

I added the two new fish into the tank in late evening on Sat 2/3/24. The fish started showing symptoms in afternoon of 2/7/24.
Do I use API aquarium salt of Kosher salt?
For antibiotics, which one is better nitrofurazone and Maracyn 2? Are both treat same disease?
Could you please elaborate why salt needs to be used in this case? Does salt kill virus?

The timeline you mentioned is typical for a viral infection... .Especially since the fish looked fine in the sellers tank.. it doesn't seem likely its a parasite.

Regular table salt.. doesnt need to be fancy salt.. non iodine is good though its not likely the iodine version would do any harm.


As for why Salt..
Please read here..
https://www.simplydiscus.com/library...net/salt.shtml

Salt helps fish deal with stress.. it also helps them deal with nitrites.. it helps heal damaged gills...it can inhibit opportunistic and pathogenic fungus and bacteria's like Columnaris. It promotes slime coat turn over and production. It can treat parasites.

In a case like your tank its got a lot to offer as a treatment and no real risk.

Al

[32Bit_Fish]

Thanks Al. I put some dry food and frozen blood worm/brine shrimp to the tank. They started picking them up slowly. Fish also started come to me when I approach the tank.
So there is some improvement there. I will continue with the daily water change.

[Iminit]

Your discus do look like something is bothering them but not bad. Whenever this happens after new fish are added I think cross contamination. When this happened to me I added the salt and Kordon rid-ich plus. This worked for me. Saw results in 2 days. Treated for 14. Can get the rid-ich at pets warehouse in glen cove.

[jeep]

PP isnt the cure all so many think it is. It doesn't kill everything and definitely not in one 5 hr treatment. Im sorry but what ever you heard about PP is wrong.

Exactly! Unfortunately, PP is one of the most dangerous and over used chemical in aquaria today. I don't even want to call it a medication. It can do damage to the fish both immediately as well as long term.

I'm a big proponent of using salt for discus and Al's advice is perfect!! It's harmless to the discus yet promotes slime coat and aids in respiration, but aggressively battles the kind of unwanted bacteria seen in CC issues.

[32Bit_Fish]

Thank you all for your feedback! The discus are doing better. I wonder whether Metro can be used in the salt water? I don't see any white feces yet. But not everyone is eating. So I might need to treat the whole tank with Metro.

[AquaticNerd]

Metro and salt can be used together safely, just make sure you time your waterchanges such that the metro has time to do it's work while in the water (i.e. don't add the metro and then do a water change an hour later).

[32Bit_Fish]

Metro and salt can be used together safely, just make sure you time your waterchanges such that the metro has time to do it's work while in the water (i.e. don't add the metro and then do a water change an hour later).

Thanks!

[32Bit_Fish]

Does salt cause cloudy water? My tank used to be crystal clear. Not anymore while salt is in the water.

[brewmaster15]

Does salt cause cloudy water? My tank used to be crystal clear. Not anymore while salt is in the water.

Salt doesn't affect the waters clarity but Pp can. It can kill filter bacteria and throw off the balance of your tank... are you treating the tank with anything else besides Salt? You mentioned you were doing daily water changes... how much are you changing? Have you tested for ammonia?
Al

[bluelagoon]

I have a question. Do you have a HOB filter in your aging barrel/container and if so why? If so it isn't the correct way to age and aerate the water. Where and when do you had Prime?

[32Bit_Fish]

Salt doesn't affect the waters clarity but Pp can. It can kill filter bacteria and throw off the balance of your tank... are you treating the tank with anything else besides Salt? You mentioned you were doing daily water changes... how much are you changing? Have you tested for ammonia?
Al

I stopped the HOB and removed the sponge filter prior adding PP into the tank. I did not add any other med when I started the salt treatment. I did a 75% water change the day before and did not do a water change yesterday. I haven't tested the water for anything. I will test the water for ammonia and do a water change today.