Head-standing, sores/holes and swelling

[jberdine]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

I have a discus which has started hanging with its face pointing down, has some sort of sores or holes above its head, and shows some swelling about 1/3 of the way forward of its tail. It started resting with nose angled down a week ago, and I noticed the holes a few days later, and the swelling a day later.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

When not resting, the discus swims normally. It is a bit less active than usual I think, but not a dramatic change. It is still interested in food, but also maybe slightly less eager than usual. It is showing slightly darkened bars, no clamped gills, normal breathing.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Worried that the holes could be due to flagellates, I dosed the tank with praziquantel 50% powder at 1g per 250liters the day before yesterday. Earlier today the discus passed at least one long white/translucent string of feces, so perhaps has worms.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

Tank is 60 gallons and has just the one discus at this time. I got the discus 2 years 4 months ago, when it was about 3.5 inches long, and now it is around 6 inches long.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

I change 30% of the water once per week, and vacuum the substrate with each water change.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

I tore the tank down and set it back up 3 months ago, but the bio media, etc. has been running for several years. The tank has around 10 Amazon sword plants, in roughly 3 inches of Seachem Flourite on the bottom, over a slow undergravel filter. The tank also has a Oase Biotherm 850 canister filter with several grades of foam, eheim bio media, zeolite, carbon, GFO, ion resin, phosphate pad.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

I only put water into a barrel with water conditioner and a circulation pump for an hour or so before adding it to the tank. No pH swing, once the water has been circulating in the barrel it measures very close to the tank.

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

API Stress Coat

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp _86 F_

- ph _7.9_

- ammonia reading _0_

- nitrite reading _0_

- nitrate reading _65_

- phosphate reading _1.5_

- ORP reading _165-175_

- TDS reading _350 ppm_

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water _100%_

- RO water ____

I know the nitrate and phosphate readings are high, much much higher than I would like, but that is what the tap water is here (London UK). The nitrate and phosphate readings for water straight from the tap are if anything slightly higher.

10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

A couple weeks ago I added some new Amazon sword plants (which did bring some snails), but no other recent changes.

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Diet is mostly freeze dried blackworms and soft pellet artemia, with some assorted frozen daphnia/brine shrimp/bloodworm/etc. as infrequent treats.

12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Here are 2 photos, one trying to show the holes and the other trying to show the discus from above to show the swelling.





Any ideas on what the problem might be?

Thanks!

[bluelagoon]

Looks like swim bladder issues in the second picture.

[LizStreithorst]

I would move the fish to a BB hospital tank. I would like a better picture of the area of the swelling. It could be simple constipation, which will cause a fish to go head-standing, but treatment should start as soon as you notice the swelling. Otherwise, bacteria gets involved which makes treatment next to impossible. If the problem is constipation the treatment is 1 table of Epsom salts per 10 gallons of water. If the fish is eating and pooping, it could well be swim bladder. The "pimples" are a sign of poor water quality. 30% weekly is not near enough, especially in a tank with substrate and plants. They will go away once the water quality problem is taken care of. In that tank, a minimum of 50% daily with a good vacuuming of the substrate with every WC. The lack of water changes shows up in your nitrate reading. A Discus tank should have a nitrate reading of no more than 10. But if your water comes out of the tap with the same high nitrate, the only thing I can think you can do to solve it is to use remineralized RO. Hope this helps.

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
Quick note..

Worried that the holes could be due to flagellates, I dosed the tank with praziquantel 50% powder at 1g per 250liters the day before yesterday. Earlier today the discus passed at least one long white/translucent string of feces, so perhaps has worms.

prazi will not help with flagellates and it doesnt sound like worms were passed. It sounds like the fish has some kind of infection going. I agree with what Liz posted here.. can you post some more pics of the swollen area. The fish should be in a hospital tank if you have one.

What other fish are in this tank?

Your is showing alot of pits and holes around the face and along the lateral line. These are a good indicator of poor water quality. .. they can also indicate a parasite infection.

Has this fish had periods of passong white feces in the past?

Al

[jberdine]

Thanks a lot for the replies. I don't have a hospital tank at the moment, but am looking into whether setting up a 15 gallon or so somewhere is feasible. This discus is the only fish in the tank.

I don't see a way to go the RO water route. It seems like a large-scale undertaking to produce enough for water changes for a 60 gallon tank. How do people do that?

I have changed more water and added resin to the filter that is claimed to absorb nitrate. It won't come down a lot, but better than nothing.

I have not topped up the prazi dose after changing water. I could, but the replies above leave me thinking that folks don't think it is the right treatment.

Here is a perhaps slightly better photo of the swelling. It is still very distorted due to being taken at sharp angle to the glass from close range. Photos from any angle other than straight above don't show anything.



I have not seen the discus pass normal feces in the last day, just some white/translucent as mentioned before.

If the issue is not constipation, is it better to avoid adding epsom salt, or is that a treatment that I ought to do now in any case?

This fish has had white feces before, but it was right after I got it and a course of prazi resulted in it passing thick white feces and then being ok afterward. This was more than 2 years ago, since then feces have been normal.

Thanks!

[LizStreithorst]

I wanted to be sure, and now I am. The swelling is too far toward the back of the fish to be constipation. I'm afraid it's swim bladder. Al will either confirm or tell me that I'm mistaken.

A tank like yours with substrate and plants is really not the kind of tank that Discus do well in. Angels would be a better choice. They are not nearly as fussy about pristine conditions as Discus are.

[brewmaster15]

It could be swim bladder as Liz indicated. It could also be a bacterial infection elsewhere. That the fish is passing white/translucent feces usually means inflammation and shedding of the gut lining. That could be from flagellates but when the abdomen is enlarged it often means bacterial infection. That could have started with a blockage.

I think given swim bladder is pretty much untreatable at this point and antibiotics are limited in the Uk your best bet is to try the epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) 1 tablespoon per 10 gal. It will not harm your plants or the discus. My guess is when you do.. the fish will pass a whole lot of that junk its been passing.

The nect step is to see what medications you can get that contain metronidazole and really step up the water quality with more frequent changes. You may want to try adding water sprite to the tank as a nitrate sponge and pothos vines rooted in the tank.that can help with nitrates.

Lastly.... There was a very lengthy thread on the forum on nitrate filters..

https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...one-tried-this

It may be of interest to you.

Al