The new Mini-Discus.. aka Balloon Rams

[brewmaster15]

Anyway, just to say that I think there's a place for efficiency in the world of raising things we eat. Chickens wouldn't be a major protein source if it weren't for the cornish cross. It'd probably be rabbits or something else.

Jacob I agree with you there. However efficiency is only part of the equation for me. Its efficient to cram animals together and dose with antibiotics prophylactically so we could fit more in bad conditions and increase profit... but that practice was laid to rest as it was also just plan stupid and created super strains of bugs. I'm not knocking the practice of mass produced Cornish Crosses .. though I have a problem with the lack transparency in the process and the lack of humane care. Just like people didnt know about the insane amount of antibiotics.. most do not know about the conditions Cornish X hens are raised in on a commercial scale. Part of that is from it not being so much as labeled on the store product the other part is many people would rather not know. Your background (and mine) as hunters and poultry guys) is a bit different. Im not surprised you treat your food better. Besides that.. the extra care translates to better quality food.

[brewmaster15]

But back to Balloon fish. Has anyone seen anywhere pictures of them raising fry?



Im surprised how well this pair has done... the fry seem to move a bit slower to me. I wonder if they breed true.

[coralbandit]

In all my time breeding rams they produced one balloon ram.
It was a very good-looking specimen and as much as I tried it would not breed with others.
I never knew the sex for sure so kept it in 2 or 3 different grow out tanks where pairs were allowed to form naturally.
Al is right that these disaster of a fish are good thing for the hobby if handled proeprly.
It really seems that balloon anything has appeal only to be matched by the horrible dwarf gourami to new inexperienced keepers~!
But if we as a respectable hobby can help those newbs past their initial contact we may have gained another great keeper to our dwindling population.
Over on FL there were many anecdotal stories from people who claimed to have kept them for 2+ years.
Few if any ever provided proof or were convinving enough to beleive.
I would have liked to bred my own strain of balloon rams from perfectly normal stock.
Would have been a HUGE seller.

[CliffsDiscus]

I remember a time when bulldog discus were showing up in many shipments and many discus were showing bulldog traits. Thank goodness that not last too long.
Pat

I remember buying the turquoise Discus only to fine out they produce a small percentage of bulldog. The bulldogs were culled and there were many takers I even had some heart shaped too.
As for the balloon rams last remember before Covi the wholesaler orders thousands of them weekly for local pet shops.

[Iminit]

I happen to have a deformed ram now.IMG_8979.jpg. Probably born September of last year. Had a pair but the other died. That pic is from Feb and it doesn’t look like it will be around much longer. This was my first attempt at artificially raising them. Did a terrible job but this guy has survived. Can’t imagine why somebody would want to continue this. But if there’s buyers there’s sellers. I can see kids wanting them. Like glo fish. Short life span = more sales. I get the fact that people don’t like domestic discus. They are fake. Man made as parrot fish,flowerhorns and glo-fish. Just a lot more expensive . Flowerhorns excluded.

[brewmaster15]

I get the fact that people don’t like domestic discus. They are fake. Man made as parrot fish,flowerhorns and glo-fish.

As someone that spends a fair amount of his time breeding wild and domestic fish and crossing back domestic to wilds this irony isn't lost on me.

The irony there Tom is that it ignores the fact that the moment you collect Wilds and breed them you have the exact same thing.. and F1 offspring from two wilds in captivity isnt a wild and can never be one. Why? Because in the wild natural selection determines which fish survives to breed.In captivity its the human owners preferences and prejudices. The natural environment, predator pressures, foods and parasites etc determine which fish breed in the wild and what genes are passed down. Theres really no difference between a wild in captivity and a domestic.. both exist at the whim of their human owners. The entire system they live in is artificial.

Its really just a preference for whats deemed a natural looking fish over a fish thats been selectively raised to be a different color or shape or pattern. We didn't make the genes that created the domestic forms. We gave naturally existing genes in the wild fish an environment where they could survive to reproduce...in effect, its human selection vs natural selection... but its the same process at its core.

For alot of "cichlid keeper" purists that don't like domestic discus its personal. I think they are just salty that their personal favorite cichlid species lack the genetic plasticity to be as diverse and beautiful as Discus.. They probably also resent the fact that Discus are called the king of the aquarium. I do wonder though how these purists face their cats and dogs knowing they are " fake and man made" and even more genetically removed from their wild ancestors.

[Second Hand Pat]

So I prefer wilds but I don't dislike domestic discus. I simply prefer wilds because they show subtle behaviors that I have not seen in domestics. I have kept domestics but get bored with them after a while.
Pat

[fljones3]

Some are more purists ... and others all along the line between two extremes.

[Iminit]

Well I like domestic discus. The colors make them. Just don’t care for wilds. Also wonder just how wild the ones out there are. We know supply and demand. Wilds are very popular now. Everybody has them and for crazy prices. Funny how they arrive with all the Asain discus.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well I like domestic discus. The colors make them. Just don’t care for wilds. Also wonder just how wild the ones out there are. We know supply and demand. Wilds are very popular now. Everybody has them and for crazy prices. Funny how they arrive with all the Asain discus.

Where do you see this happening Tom?
Pat

[bluelagoon]

I can't wait until the fluorescent gene is introduced into discus, like they've done to Glo tetras and some others. But that's just another modification and nothing really harmful.

[Iminit]

Pat. Locally for sure but even the sponsors have been doing it.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat. Locally for sure but even the sponsors have been doing it.

Hi Tom, are you referring to wild crosses (as in discus)?
Pat

[For100]

I can't wait until the fluorescent gene is introduced into discus, like they've done to Glo tetras and some others. But that's just another modification and nothing really harmful.

This idea did not even cross my mind…. No offense to anyone, but I hope I don’t see one any time soon

[Willie]

Devils advocate here. If the normal life expectancy of a Ram is. 2 years and whats being sold in Petshops are fullgrown adults which I suspect are slow growers is 6 months life expectancy really unexpected? Im pretty sure most imported Rams with normal bodies have similar expectancy when bought as full grown. Of note also is that probably 99.99% of balloon rams are imported and 99.99 %of those that buy them do not quarantine.

Brew's point is well taken. I used to spawn German rams like crazy back in the day. They required very little room and will spawn on little clay pots. As soon as they spawned, I'd pull the pot and raise them separately. German rams will mature in 6 months and these 5/8" long fish, with almost no color, will spawn every 15 days! As they age, the spawns would drop in frequency. Yup, I made a ton of money selling them at our local fish club. It got so crazy that I started selling entire spawns to wholesalers because I was running out of grow out tanks.

I sold very few of these to local fish stores because they only wanted 1.25" long fish with full color. If you've spawned a lot of German rams, you know that their entire lifespan is only 15 - 18 months at 82F. I know because I kept multiple generations of German rams so I had records of their birth dates. However, a 1.25" long fish with full color is at least 12 months old and has maybe 1 spawn left. So the stores ended up with my burnt out pairs. A retail customer would get fish with 4 - 5 months of life left and consider them to be very difficult fish to raise and spawn.

These days, all the rams are bred in ponds in Asia. I don't know exactly how they're raised, but they're much more difficult to spawn in the tank. Likely the continuous inbreeding has significantly reduced fertility and vitality. If you can source wild caught ones (which are not as colorful), they'll be much easier to raise and spawn.

As for balloons, that's really up to the eye of the beholder. It's a common mutation where the spine is shortened and seen in my species, e.g. platys. You should know that the high-body discus from Asia is created with this same mutation. In one dose, it produces a beautifully tall discus. In a double dose, it's produce the bulldog type (which I despise). If you spawn two high body discus, you'll see ~25% of the next generation show up as bulldogs.