Shipping thoughts

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Have a question for you. I have seen alot of fish sales that state they will refund DOAs cost of the fish but not the shipping paid if theres a DOA . The reason is the seller feels they have no control over the shipment once it leaves. Though I understand the sentiment my views are a bit different. To me Its the sellers responsibility to get the fish to the customer alive and well. DOA's can happen under the best of packing and shipping but lets be honest .. usually DOAs are from not the best shipping and packing..

A customer buying fish online is paying X amount of fish to get live fish. Getting DOAs and having to pay the shipping is rubbing Salt into a wound IMO.

Im not talking about a case where a shipping company loses a shipment.. But when you buy fish and they arrive dead in the expected shipping time.

Its not just a discus thing...this is industry wide in the aquarium hobby. It doesn't sit well with me. The shipping is part of the transaction to get the live fish to the customer...most of the time its inflated to begin with. If there DOAs that occurred.. the shipping costs should be refunded at least pro-rated for the number of DOAs .

Your thoughts?

Al

[fljones3]

Doesn't the seller file a claim with the shipping company? If they get refunded, then the customer is essentially paying shipping twice. If not, my thought would boil down to why the DOA. Fish do die naturally. Seems to me that there might be culpability on either the seller or the shipper depending on the situation. The customer (hopefully) is aware of the shipping practices of the seller. The customer can agree or disagree with their practice. Personally, I much prefer the seller taking full responsibility. If the seller does take full responsibility it gives me additional confidence that I am buying from a highly reputable seller (pending their reviews are positive).

[brewmaster15]

The seller can file a claim with the shipping company for lost packages and sometimes depending on the shipping service shipping is refunded if it falls out side a guaranteed window ( express shipping) though shipping companies add more and disclaimers now.(storms, forest fires etc)

DOAs from lost shipments or unreasonably delays I think should be refunded to the customer because odds are the seller will file a claim with the shipping company.

[Second Hand Pat]

I agree with you Al but would add the caveat that the fish arrive in the expected shipping time and the box is in a reasonable condition (not damaged etc). When I received the RSGs from John K. he actually shipped them USPS which surprised me. When I saw my mail lady carrying the box to my front porch you could tell she was being very careful. I was very appreciative of the care she was showing.

I do feel however that when a box is damaged the shipping company needs to shoulder some of the cost etc and perhaps the shipper should refund some or all the cost to the buyer. I know the shipper can make a claim etc but that seems to be a lengthy process.

OK, if that makes no sense I blame lack of coffee lol.
Pat

[brewmaster15]

You also have to be careful to read the sellers disclaimer and refund policy. I have seen alot of sellers offer shipping by usps priority in their sale.. but they will only guarantee live arrival if the fish are shipped next day. Sorry but thats a cope out. If you don't think your fish will make it to the customer alive by usps why offer it as an option? The answer is because it makes the fish shipping look cheap and reasonable.

If I sell a fish , I would never send it using a service I did not have faith in...even if its cheaper. The seller can literally pack up dead or sickly fish and send them without and guarantees . There is no live arrival guarantee if you use the cheaper service.

I see this alot on aquabid and ebay.

[brewmaster15]

I agree with you Al but would add the caveat that the fish arrive in the expected shipping time and the box is in a reasonable condition (not damaged etc). When I received the RSGs from John K. he actually shipped them USPS which surprised me. When I saw my mail lady carrying the box to my front porch you could tell she was being very careful. I was very appreciative of the care she was showing.

I do feel however that when a box is damaged the shipping company needs to shoulder some of the cost etc and perhaps the shipper should refund some or all the cost to the buyer. I know the shipper can make a claim etc but that seems to be a lengthy process.

OK, if that makes no sense I blame lack of coffee lol.
Pat

Pat since you and John are in the same state usps usually works out even for adult discus. I usually have no issues with usps in the tri-state area here(CT,NY,MA).. though genetally UPS is a better choice.

Small fish species and juvenile discus transport a bit easier which opens up more shipping options.

[brewmaster15]

Heres a few examples..


Screenshot_20240416_053356.jpg

Screenshot_20240416_054544.jpg


Screenshot_20240416_053539.jpg

Screenshot_20240416_053628.jpg


I think.its reasonable that the seller not guarantee live arrival if the package is outside for awhile however.. stating tracking is sent out means nothing with usps priority.. the package tracking lags hours .

[brewmaster15]

This one offers second day ups but the DOA guarantee is only on next day shipments.


Screenshot_20240416_055944.jpg

Screenshot_20240416_060021.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

I have seen where USPS tracking simply does not reflect any recent updates and suddenly the box appears at your door lol.
Pat

[Charlyc11]

I personally ship rams UPS next day and try to pack with best practices so no DOA's. It's gotten very expensive to ship water so it's very hard to pay for shipping if you get DOA's. I have replaced fish once or twice and I paid for shipping but I state the opposite in my listings. Usually you get to communicate with your customers and if they honestly had a issue I replace and pay for shipping I not in for the money. I am already sweating the thought that I will be shipping out some discus juveniles since I can't possibly keep them all. We will have to talk about that Al.

[brewmaster15]

I personally ship rams UPS next day and try to pack with best practices so no DOA's. It's gotten very expensive to ship water so it's very hard to pay for shipping if you get DOA's. I have replaced fish once or twice and I paid for shipping but I state the opposite in my listings. Usually you get to communicate with your customers and if they honestly had a issue I replace and pay for shipping I not in for the money. I am already sweating the thought that I will be shipping out some discus juveniles since I can't possibly keep them all. We will have to talk about that Al.

Chuck, If you could ship the Rams fine I am sure you can do the Discus.. I just personally would not use Breather Bags for Discus... We can definitely walk you through the process though.

al

[Iminit]

My dealing with UPS was a few years back. The shipper did a bad job and the box got wet. UPS wouldn’t deliver and marked it down that I refused delivery. Sitting at home waiting for fish I get from UPS that I refused delivery. Took me hours to find the fish. UPS phone service is in India. Me refusing cleared both ups and the seller. Terrible experience. Fish lived though.

[jeep]

I'm not sure of all carriers policies, but FedEx does not, or did not, guarantee shipments that contain living things, even including plants. It's a tough call on guaranteeing live arrival on fish. I'm no pro shipper but I've received nothing but praise for the way I pack my fish.

I tend to think if the shipper is in it as a business, the guarantee should be unconditional with exception to shipping cost if the package is delayed or destroyed. However, I also think I would offer a total refund because it's the risk you take when you offer to ship a live fish. If one out of several fish died, I would certainly offer a refund on that fish, but I don't think I'd offer a free replacement including shipping for a single fish. Not everyone can afford that, including myself.

If the fish are packed good, then even a slight delay or damage shouldn't affect their health. Years ago someone in California shipped me some discus on a Friday for overnight Saturday delivery and the person at FedEx counter didn't check the Saturday delivery box so their idea of "next day" was scheduled for Monday. This happened to be on Memorial Day weekend so "next day" was actually Tuesday. The box finally arrived around 10am Tuesday, 5 days after being bagged, and the box was totally destroyed and even had a dirty boot print imbedded on the top of the box and the styrofoam was smashed and the bags were all popped. Surprising thing is the fish, even without water, were still alive. This tells me the driver had to be the one who intentionally destroyed the box. There's no way the fish would have survived if anyone earlier in the chain did the damage. Even though the FedEx counter person was responsible for the delay, and even though the FedEx driver did the damage, FedEx wouldn't refund the shipping charges because the package contained live fish. This is why I don't put a "Live Fish" sticker on my boxes. I just use a "Perishable" sticker...

[danotaylor]

I agree with you Al, fish that arrive on time as DOA should be replaced, including shipping, at the suppliers expense. If the box is mistreated that’s between the supplier and the company they choose to ship through.

I ordered a “guaranteed male” from a supplier and it turned out to be a female. I opted for a refund rather than having to pay shipping on the replacement. My thoughts are if you guarantee the sex of a fish then the replacement shipping should be guaranteed as well. I understand they don’t make anything off shipping, but why should I have to pay for shipping twice on a fish that’s guaranteed? I haven’t purchased there again.

One other place I know of that ships out of Florida will cover replacement shipping but they then ship the replacements 2 day.

I know a guy here in Ohio that received fish last week. The box was partially crushed & wet on the outside. The styrofoam box was cracked and one of the bags inside burst. Clearly mishandled by the shipper. The supplier says they’re sending a replacement fish and covering the shipping cost. Good deal

[brewmaster15]

I'm not sure of all carriers policies, but FedEx does not, or did not, guarantee shipments that contain living things, even including plants. It's a tough call on guaranteeing live arrival on fish. I'm no pro shipper but I've received nothing but praise for the way I pack my fish.

I tend to think if the shipper is in it as a business, the guarantee should be unconditional with exception to shipping cost if the package is delayed or destroyed. However, I also think I would offer a total refund because it's the risk you take when you offer to ship a live fish. If one out of several fish died, I would certainly offer a refund on that fish, but I don't think I'd offer a free replacement including shipping for a single fish. Not everyone can afford that, including myself.

If the fish are packed good, then even a slight delay or damage shouldn't affect their health. Years ago someone in California shipped me some discus on a Friday for overnight Saturday delivery and the person at FedEx counter didn't check the Saturday delivery box so their idea of "next day" was scheduled for Monday. This happened to be on Memorial Day weekend so "next day" was actually Tuesday. The box finally arrived around 10am Tuesday, 5 days after being bagged, and the box was totally destroyed and even had a dirty boot print imbedded on the top of the box and the styrofoam was smashed and the bags were all popped. Surprising thing is the fish, even without water, were still alive. This tells me the driver had to be the one who intentionally destroyed the box. There's no way the fish would have survived if anyone earlier in the chain did the damage. Even though the FedEx counter person was responsible for the delay, and even though the FedEx driver did the damage, FedEx wouldn't refund the shipping charges because the package contained live fish. This is why I don't put a "Live Fish" sticker on my boxes. I just use a "Perishable" sticker...

I used to label boxes with "Live fish" as such hoping the shipping handlers would be more gentle.. I doubt it made a Difference but thats what I did with Fedex all the time.. With USPS I will not label the boxes. I ran into an issue a few years ago. My usps shipments were getting held up...even my express ones. Things were taking a day or two longer. My postmaster could not figure it out so she called in the east coast manager. I worked with her abit and we eventually found out what the issue was. It was labeling the fish box. She actually went to Springfield Ma's distribution site and found out that they were sorting the boxes I sent by hand because of the label, and put it a separate cart to "protect" it. Problem was it didn't always make the flights from that point because of the special handling. I stopped Labeling the box with Live fish and everything went as it was supposed to. No idea how much of what I was told was factual, but I can't deny the results.

al