Where does all the red go?

[Iminit]

I’ve bought a few red discus over the years and none have stayed red.
This is a red cover bought locally.IMG_3393.jpg. Looked great.IMG_6755.jpg.Now not so red.

These are a pair of red tigers from Forrest.IMG_0487.jpgthese are bright red! But they changed quicklyIMG_5372.jpg. One passed about 6 months ago and the other is going the same routeIMG_0239.jpg. This fish eats great poos black but is slowly declining. Both were removed and treated. Nothing ever changed.

This is a Batik eruption from Chicago IMG_5858.jpg and nowIMG_9727.jpg. This guy changed to this color while raising fry. Never came back to red. But does seem fine. Another an emerald came like this. Fish on rightIMG_5052.jpg but after 6 months declined to this and again was medicated. But did pass. Ate till it died besides going dark showed no sign of illness.IMG_7127.jpg

Than there are the reds that turn orange.IMG_0799.jpgIMG_0250.jpg. OIMG_5252.jpgon bottom.IMG_0247.jpg. These 2 bought locally. Both as is the red cover in great shape and still nice fish. Just no longer red.

Why is this? Is it food? Cause I feed foods for red discus. Or is this hormone’s used to turn them red? Seems the ones that passed had un fixable problems.

Most of my Discus are between 2-4 years old. The ones that have passed (2) were all very red when I got them. Could this have something to do with my water? Does anyone have red discus that hold there color?

[Rick S]

Imo. Hormones.

[coralbandit]

My understanding is a lot of red comes from color enhancing foods or specific foods for that color.
Have you tried any of these;
Astaxanthin: This natural pigment found in shrimp and krill can enhance reds in fish. You can obtain it from chemically synthesized sources or ground, dried shrimp.
Carotenoid-Rich Foods: Ready-made fish foods often include ingredients like shellfish, algae, red bell pepper, spinach, nettle, and alfalfa, all of which contribute to color enhancement.

[brewmaster15]

Theres a few things to note here and its going to ruffle feathers.

Color uptake in Discus is regulated by hormones. When adult fish go into breeding mode, hormones trigger the storage of red pigments sourced from the diet. Its why wild discus that are red based Pop in Colors as adults of breeding age. All red pigments are from the fishes diet, Discus don't make them (right on Coralbandit) but in order to utilize them the fish has to be healthy and have that command line to uptake and store pigments which is as I said Hormone mediated.

Aquaculture tricks the fish to think they are mature adults by giving them hormones and hormone mimics (chemicals that are not hormones but act like them). The Effect is the same as when People take hormones... a little not a real issue, too much and theres damage done. Hormones are incredibly powerful regulators of body functions. Too much in fish can damage them and they will basically waste away and fade in color. the Right amount can help breeders sort and grade fish, and make their colors and potential pop. Its a fact of the ornamental fish industry and has been for ages. So Hormones can cause whats been posted here. One should also note that Hormones can make a 2"-4" fish take up colors quickly and is used in the trade to color up small fish for the Petshop industry. These fish need to be avoided at all costs, you will be disappointed.

Parasites can also cause this,. Gut parasites damage organs, and impair the take up of vitamins . These deficiencies make the fish unwell. A fish that is fighting parasites or their damage is not going to be in prime shape for breeding, and so the natural hormone cascade that would regulate color uptake doesn't happen. The fish then loses color, and can waste away from the parasites.

Same can happen when tumors are present.

It can also happen when Heavy metals accumulate, which is a good reason to not feed Tubifex worms.

Unfortunately we do not have a test for hormone treated fish , so its really impossible to nail down the Cause. People have to make up their own mind as to what seems likely and plausible and make buying decisions based on it. People have to understand that most highly colored Red fish and spotted fish will fade to some extent. and sometimes it will color up more when breeding and sometimes it will waste away and die given certain factors.

So there you have it. Search Hormones on the forum and I am sure you will see many interesting discussions. This really is not new.

[CliffsDiscus]

Asian breeders feed a certain of shrimp to color up their red fish. I can't remember exactly the name of shrimp but I did post it
before on this forum. .

[Charlyc11]

I still got some.

Reds.jpg

[brewmaster15]

I still got some.

Reds.jpg

Chuck, where did you get those Glo-Discus? They must have been expensive!

[Iminit]

Chuck I want some of that red!!. Al I don’t think the pm message thing is working for me.

[Willie]

Back in my obsessive stage, I've made up foods with astaxanthin and/or beta carotene and neither did anything to produce redder fish. Yes, both are used to enhance coloration. Astaxanthin is added to feed to give farmed salmon any color from red to yellow, mostly orange. But their effect is on the flesh. (Salmon is silver on the outside.) The learning here is "don't believe everything on the Internet".

Later on, I found out by accident that standard (synthetic) food colors will improve red color in discus. The most effective one I've found is VibraBites, which is my go to dried food. I had purchased a dozen Golden Leopards from Winnie's Discus in Long Island 2 - 3 years ago. Over time, they developed into beautiful red turqs. I asked Ceyhun about this and he explained that it was critically important to not feed with food containing color compounds which would mask the underlying gold pigments. He sent me more fish from the same spawn and they stayed golden.

Note that beef heart has no ingredient for color development.

[For100]

Back in my obsessive stage, I've made up foods with astaxanthin and/or beta carotene and neither did anything to produce redder fish. Yes, both are used to enhance coloration. Astaxanthin is added to feed to give farmed salmon any color from red to yellow, mostly orange. But their effect is on the flesh. (Salmon is silver on the outside.) The learning here is "don't believe everything on the Internet".

Later on, I found out by accident that standard (synthetic) food colors will improve red color in discus. The most effective one I've found is VibraBites, which is my go to dried food. I had purchased a dozen Golden Leopards from Winnie's Discus in Long Island 2 - 3 years ago. Over time, they developed into beautiful red turqs. I asked Ceyhun about this and he explained that it was critically important to not feed with food containing color compounds which would mask the underlying gold pigments. He sent me more fish from the same spawn and they stayed golden.

Note that beef heart has no ingredient for color development.

@Willie,

Are you saying if you fed color compounds, you screwed the original coloration even after you stop feeding it? If so, I think I messed up an albino Millenium gold that I got in February. It turned orange without noticing it but stopped feeding vibrabites about a month ago.

[Charlyc11]

Chuck, where did you get those Glo-Discus? They must have been expensive!

I feed a lot of different foods (TetraColor XL tropical granules and the cubes with the biopigment) but they are pretty bright and this new Iphone does enhance a little.
My Stendker always ate Vibrabites but he is not taking them anymore since he found Als cubes.

IMG_0403.jpg

[brewmaster15]

For anyone thats interested in how colors work in ornamental fish..

Please read ...

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FA192

University of Florida did a very good article on it

[For100]

“My Stendker always ate Vibrabites but he is not taking them anymore since he found Als cube”

I am with you, It is Al’s fault my fish have second thoughts about dry food after

[brewmaster15]

For those more interested how various hormones are used in Aquaculture..

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...7.2018.1475423

And pigmentation
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...nNn_EvOUSE7DKG

Warning both are science heavy.


This one ..

Effects of synthetic androgen (17α-methyltestosterone and estrogen (17β-estradiol on growth and skin coloration in emperor red cichlid, Aulonocara nyassae (Actinopterygii: Cichliformes: Cichlidae

https://aiep.pensoft.net/article/702...8m6aZWXewy0mJ-
Is relevent directly to discus, IMO.

[For100]

For those more interested how various hormones are used in Aquaculture..

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...7.2018.1475423

And pigmentation
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...nNn_EvOUSE7DKG

Warning both are science heavy.


This one ..


https://aiep.pensoft.net/article/702...8m6aZWXewy0mJ-
Is relevent directly to discus, IMO.

Thanks Al