water softner

[muggsie]

Hi I am new to this site and new to the caring of discus. I have 12 of them right now, 2 of the fish are a breeding pair. My water is 287 ppm hard and I would like to soften it and bring the ph down . The ph is 7.8 right now. I have looked into getting a r/o system for my home, 100gpd. as I understand there operation they seem to wast a lot of water. I have a well and do not want to stress it to much. From what I have read the r/o system only produces 5% of the water used the rest goes down the drain, is this right? Why cant you use a sears water softner? Thanks for the help......Bob

[bmrin1]

muggsie,
first off the ph is in the acceptable range and I think that your hardness is ok as well. The problem with water softeners is that al though they take calcium, magnesium and iron out of the water they do replace those with sodium chloride ions. Thus your water is not any softer in terms of tds., and your conductance will also stay the same or rise.
R/o units do waste water and that is just a fact of life that we live with. There are things that can be done to help that out but not eliminate it. Proper operating pressure and water temp. Having a well puts you at a disadvantage, lower pressure and cold water. A pressure boosting pump and a mixing valve can give you higher pressure and temp.
The best thing that you can do is leave your water stable, changing water parameters will stress your fish. Change lots of water (aged and warmed) and watch your fish thrive.
Brian

[muggsie]

I know the fish will live in a ph of 7.8 and a hardness of 287ppm. The big question is will they lay eggs and will the eggs hatch. Right now my tanks are set up for angel fish and I would like to breed and raise discus. The angels breed like flys in my water. Everything I read says you need soft water with a ph of 6.0 to 6.5 to breed them. is this true? thanks

[ronrca]

Agree with Brian!

Breeding is not dependant so much on ph as it is on conductivity (tds). The lower the tds the better (within reason). R/O water will lower tds, not softeners. Your discus will lay eggs however you will not get a good to none hatching rate.

[RandalB]

Bob,
The people posting replies to you are giving you the straight dope regarding R/O units. 5% product is not entirely accurate though. Your water is not all that terrible and should give you better perfomance than 5% depending on the pressure and ground water temp. You are already close to the Ideal PH for an R/O unit (8.0). Under Ideal conditions an R/O unit should have a product to waste ratio of around 1:2 (Product : Waste)If water waste is an issue, it can be caught and used for grow out and gardening, etc. A booster pump would also be a good investment and save lots of waste water while giving you an increase on that 100GPD you are looking at.

Just remember, before you spend $200-300 on an R/O unit, you can DIY (Do it yourself) for under $120.00. The markup on R/O units is pretty high and in a lot of cases the only difference is the sticker on the unit.

Hope this helps,
RandalB

Brian and Ronrca keep up the good posts!!

[Jeff_Hart]

Just a note, I tested my tds on water run through my softener and it came out at over 1200ms. Higher then my straight well water as far as tds is concerned. (tons of salt in it I assume) So I run my R/O units from water before the softener.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Jeff:
You may want to check on placing your RO after your softener. I think the salts from the softener are easier on your membrane than the calcium and magnesium. RandalB?
Carol

[RandalB]

Carol,
You are absolutely correct. Magnesium and Calcium will foul a R/O membrane faster than sodium.

Jeff,

Using a water softener first will help extend the life of the membrane. Remember to flush your membrane regularly and you should have no problems getting the rated 2 years out of your membrane.

RandalB

[RAWesolowski]

Randal,

What's the best way to flush a RO membrane?

[muggsie]

Ok this helps me a lot about understanding the life of the r/o system. So if I get a sears water softner I should put the r/o system after the water softner. I have a conductivity meter it reads 10 to 1990 Ms. From what I have read I am looking to get a reading of 70 Ms in the water storage barrel to do my water changes in my breeding tanks. Is this the right number? What is the difference between a conductivity meter and a TDS ? Can I use the waste water in my angel fish grow out tanks with out any harm? thanks.....Bob

[RandalB]

Bob, to answer your questions, A TDS Meter is a conductivity meter that does a simple conversion to estimate Total Dissolved solids. 70 Ms is fine for Discus. I prefer a little higher (100-120). With my water I get a little more Ph stability with this level. There is no problem using your waste water to grow out angels it will be a little harder than your normal tap water. I've had no problem raising baby angels in mine. Putting the R/O unit after the softener will give you better performance and longer membrane life.

Hope this helps,
RandalB

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Hey Bob, there is some good info on this thread for ya. I have an R/O hooked up to a "softened" water line in my house. My softener uses Salt(Sodium Chloride) to exchange the hardness ions (Calcium & Magnesium primarily) for Sodium ions, which are less likely to precipitate(they stay in solution/dissolved better). I also use warm water to run through the R/O, which increases the output to waste ratio due to the density of the water, I believe. There should be a calculation in the R/O unit manual for the percentages of waste to product ratios possible with varying temps. R/O units(mine , at least) stated production rates are usually printed with regards to three parameters, temp., TDS & line pressure. My unit is a 60 GPD @ 500ppm TDS, 60psi and 77degrees F. HTH

Steve

[muggsie]

Thank you all for the help. I have been e-mailing Walter from water and ice and he can build one for me. I have to call him to firm thing up. I was planning on mixing the hot and cold water befor sending it thru the r/o unit. I guess the fish dont realy care about the water that much early this morning a blue diamond and a red one layed eggs on the heater tube. these fish are only 4 to 5" in size, and in a tank with 8 other discus. I still have to set up my 29 gal breeding tanks, they are all drilled and plumbed for overflow drains, I just need to run the air and fill lines. Thanks again for the help..............

[Mick M]

For information only.

Do NOT hook up your HOT water to this system yet!

1- Water over a certain temp will harm the membrane. 84F
I think. (29.4C)
Unless you can be absolutely certain that this can never happen DONT.

2-Do a few tests' on your HOT water out the tap and see what results you get.

I do understand that your water/ heating systems are different over the pond but I believe the basics are the same. Water running through a heat exchanger/ boiler will alter from that being put in- over time.

This is what I have learnt over time. Please talk with Walter etc.. They obviously know more than I.

[RandalB]

Bob, I just noticed that I missed a question that you asked. The best way to flush a R/O membrane is to simply remove the flow restrictor and let it run for several minutes unrestricted. There are lots of restrictor bypass kits out there that you can buy for $20 on up. All they are doing is bypassing the restrictor with a ball valve to activate and deactivate. I've even seen electric auto timers to operate the flush cycle. Bottom line, you can manually remove the restrictor and save $$$.

There are lots of minor differences in R/O units, but in most cases the flow restrictor is a small disc in the wastewater fitting on your membrane housing or an inline cylinder on the wasteline itself.

A R/O unit I purchased on E-bay a few years ago had a regular needle valve in place of the restrictor allowing me to flush by opening it full. There are lots of variatons but most are like the above paragraph.

Sorry about the delay,
RandalB