water softner

[jeep]

Sorry to jump in so late here, but I have a friend that want to start discus for plearure only. She has a whole house water softener and my question is this:

Is softened water ok for discus? I know most of the minerals are removed and replaced with sodium. Can the fish live in water where the only trace mineral is salt? Or will she have to replace the minerals???

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Jeep- you want to tell your friend to NOT use this water, as it is filled with Sodium ions. It will not only INCREASE the conductance of the water, but it will also draw water out from cells due to osmotic pressure, since water seeks to equalize pressure(salinity content) between separate areas(Cells/body and water area/tank). Think of it as if you were to drink ocean water....the salt in that water will draw the "Purer water" out of your body's cells, back into where that salt water is stored to balance out the salinity content between areas. That is why you NEVER drink sea water if you're stranded out at sea! Did you ever do the science experiment with the plant leaf under a microscope in school? Adding a drop of salt water will make the cells shrivel(Sp.?) due to the drawing out of water(less pure than water in cells), while adding a drop of distilled water will burst the cells due to the uptake of the water(more pure than the water in cells). Also, salt is more soluable in water than Calc or Mag ions and that is why I run Sodium softened water through my R/O(less scaling and easier to flush). I also flush my R/O the same way that was mentioned by RandalB......removing the flow restrictor for a minute or so. Mick is correct in stating DO NOT hook up the R/O to straight hot water. In my manual, it states that 110 deg. F or higher is the "no-no" point for my membrane. I run warm water (95-ish) through my R/O unit, as it produces more output to waste ratio due to water's density(viscosity) I believe it was. I have a 65 GPD unit and can probably get a good 75^ out of it in 24 hours if I had a big enough storage tank(only have a 55gal) HTH

Steve

[jeep]

Thanks Steve, that's pretty much where I was thinking, although not a detailed

[jeep]

How about replacing the salt with potassium?

My guess would be that the discus still need other trace elements???

[RandalB]

Steve's exactly right. Softened (Sodium replacement) water is not a great idea for raising fish.

The membrane will be damaged by excessive heat also. DOW lists the maximum operating temperature as 113 degrees Fahrenheit (95 at PH above 10) for Filmtec memranes. The higher temperature gives greater molecular motion which increases the efficency of the membrane.

I prefer to boost pressure to gain membrane efficency rather than temp because my R/O unit is hard plumbed and I can't be 100% sure that the temp will stay where it needs to be. Also the family would kill me if there was no hot water for the shower because I am using it with the R/O unit (LOL). I get enough static about the fish as it is!

As far as replacing the sodium with potassium goes I think it would be impossible to accurately judge how much would be needed to replace the sodium Ions in the softened tap water and I am not sure if it would be a better thing. The best solution would be to add an R/O unit after the house softener to remove the sodium and whatever else gets through rather than play chemist possibly to the detriment of the fish.

Just for info sake how bad is the unsoftened water your friend has? She might not need to do anything.

Hope this helps,
RandalB

[dm]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think this was probably locked on accident so I unlocked it again.

[Cowboy]

I like the DIY idea. Where do I find the information needed to do that?
Todd

[RandalB]

Anyone who's interested:

I am rewriting the parts list, and I'll be happy to send it along when I get it finished.

Thanks,
RandalB

[jeep]

Randal,

Her softener is "hard wired" into her house. She got-ripped off to the tune of $5 grand, so removing it is not an option.

Your quote:

"As far as replacing the sodium with potassium goes I think it would be impossible to accurately judge how much would be needed to replace the sodium Ions in the softened tap water and I am not sure if it would be a better thing."

I'm not sure exactly what you meant, but what I meant is that I've seen systems that soften the water by using potassium in place of salt. I just didn't know if it's as easy as using different media to soften the water, or if systems are built differently to handle different types of media, but you still would have a lack of necessary trace elements.

Now I'm thinking she can just use her outside spiggots for her tank water since that water does not run through the softener.

Brian

[RandalB]

Brian,
Just a little confusion,I thought you meant trying to substitute potassium AFTER the water had already been softened with sodium.

I'm not familiar with potassium replacement units personally, But I'm not certain the added potassium would be any better than sodium. 6 of 1, half dozen of another. If anyone has experience with the potassium softening units please jump in here.

I think the outside faucet idea is the best, avoid the whole NA/K debate. Just for info what's the water like before softening?

[RAWesolowski]

Randal,

I can use either the traditional softener "salt", sodium chloride, or I can use the cleaner "salt", potassium chloride. The Potassium does not give the "slick" feel in the shower that sodium produces but has a greater tendency to crust in the brine tank and diminish unit efficiency.

In any case, it's two salt ions.

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Brian, I was rapping with our chemist at work the other day about my R/O and softener. He asked me what I used in the softener and I told him Sodium Chloride. He asked me why I don't use Potassium Chloride(I have before), since it is an added bonus of plant fert along with a water softener. I never really thought of that, but told him it was much more expensive than Sodium Chloride($6.50/bag compared to $2.50/bag). My house is plumbed into the softener for ALL water taps EXCEPT the kitchen sink and ALL outside hose bibs, due to plant watering capabilities(since most people fill up their plant jugs at the kitchen sink, I am told). If your friend was getting the "Tap" water to mix in with the R/O from a "Softened" feed, then she was adding MAJOR Sodium ion filled water(devoid of Calc/Mag) to stripped R/O water, making it a salty solution. She should be able to get "regular" tap feed from her kitchen sink faucet or any hose bib faucet outside. These should all have the water with Calc/Mag salts and other traces as well, BUT will also have the Chlorine or Chloramine, as well as any other nasties, if treated by the water supplier!!!!!! HTH
P.S-----FIVE GRAND for a softener "Holy Crapamoly, I'm in the wrong line of work!" Actually, this just goes to show there are some BAD snakes in the grass out there!

Steve

[Keystonediscus]

Do not hook up your hot water line to your RO unit your wife will kill you on the first cold shower she gets Trust me it uses quite a bit of water and will make your water heater work harder to keep water hot for you running a plain cold water line will be fine if you wanted to you could get an electrical pipe heater wire to heat the line a little before entering the filter it may help raise the temp a little but really its not necessary the RO unit will work fine with minimal loss in production


Jeep in answer to your very good question about minerals the discus need I regenerate my RO water with a formula a good friend of mine gave me a long time ago. 3 grams calcium Sulfate, 1 gram magnesium sulfate (epsom salts), 1 gram calcium Chloride (Sea Salt) mix this ratio per 20 gals as a starting point +/_ whatever you need to get the right microsemens for your fish. Juvies need 250 -350 Ms adults 150-200 ms and breeders 50-180 ms email me if you need help finding the calcium sulfate i have a source. this formula will give you everything you need to stablize RO waer and give your discus what they need for proper growth and development.