Back To The Wild

[Lynn]

[quote author=Round_Head link=board=1;threadid=5159;start=15#53814 date=1039334573]
Everyone wants to think that our modern day discus are grossly inbred. I challenge you all to prove it. I want to see it in writing. I want to see your fish traced back to the original cross.
If you don't see where I am going with this, you'll never will.
[/quote]

Writing??? Discus breeding is not the AKC or UKC!! It never will be. I don't see where you are going.
Why do you think the best wild caughts are sold for a LOT of money to Asia?

One more reason....outcrossing strengthens the immune system....Its one of the first things to be effected in highly inbred and crossbred fish. Its weakened well before any obvious physical defects show through. Some types of discus on the market are "harder to keep" than other types, I believe this is the number one reason why.

There was a study a while back by the Univ. of Singapore(I think) Showing that the gene pool of domestic discus is VERY shallow compared to the gene pool of certain wilds. Which leads me to believe that the wild discus ISN'T being utalized to the full extent that it could be. I think there are alot of new things yet to be discovered....only to be uncovered by bringing in wild blood.

Why cant a breeder just find an unrelated type that matches his type and outcross to those to strengthen his line?? They do....all the time. But IMO this only delays(and not for long in a genetic time frame) the need to outcross to wild.

Tony

[DarkDiscus]

[quote author=Round_Head link=board=1;threadid=5159;start=0#53685 date=1039293575]
1. Why don't they don't cross a race horses with a wild horse to "Hope" for a faster cross?
2. Why don't they cross a gray hound with the wolf and "Hope" for a faster cross?
3. Why don't they cross a blood hound to a jackal and "Hope" for a better nose dog?
4. Why don't they cross a rhode island red to a wild chicken and "Hope" for a meatier bird.
5. Why don't they cross fancy bettas with the wild and "Hope" for a newer type?
6. Why don't they cross fancy goldfish with a carp and "Hope" for a newer type?

[/quote]

My first thought here before reading all the other thoughtful and insightful responses is this:

1. They DO breed racehorses with arabians to attempt to rejuvenate the bloodlines and make better horses. Maybe they are not 'wilds' but the problem is that most true wild horses today are very inbred, due to a small population.

2. Don't know that much about greyhounds, but I'm pretty sure that there's enough of a breeding base in the breed that they can remain healthy if bred properly. An no one has advocated breeding greyhounds brother to sister or parent for 10 generations to fix characteristics, either...

3. I'm pretty sure you can't breed a jackal with a dog as they are different species. Maybe you could hybridize them...

4. Wild chickens are FAR different from today's birds... They have been bred for physical characteristics. The only major differences between wild discus and domestic are color, patterns and attempting an improved body shape. You can go back to the original without losing a LOT of the gains made by breeding. This isn't so with chickens. Plus Rhode Island Reds are bred primarily as egg layers - not for meat.

5. & 6. I would think that breeders of goldfish and or bettas WOULD utilize the wild strains to attempt to improve upon their bloodlines. I don't know enough about them!

Thanks for an interesting and thought provoking topic!

John

[tango0806]

It's gentics, outcrossing and back crossing improves, strengthen and creates better breeding. I have had Discus for many years never had wilds but over the past 6 months or so I have become more and more interested in them. Eventually I plan on having a tank of wild caught Discus. I recently read in a magazine that despite the amount of Discus caught in the wild the population has not shown any significant decrease over the past 40 years or so. David in New York where are you on this subject? How about some input from one who specializes in wilds?

John & Kathy G

[wildthing]

I think most of the reasons for outcrossing with wild stock have been well stated above.
millions of square miles of the Amazon ( as far as fish are concerned) is unexplored still. Fishermen know where to go to the nearest point to find the fish that are in demand . Looking for new varieties requires expensive trips to unknown rivers without any guaranteed results, but they are surely out there, New species & variants of other fish, animals, insects & plants are being discovered annually. It has been noticed that whenever a new hydro project is completed on the Amazon Discus are one of the first species to thrive in the newly created environment.
The single & by far the biggest threat to all wild species of animals in the Amazon is loss of habitat, not fishing.

DW

"Wow! I am feeling some heat now" <-- are you sure that isn't just embarassment??

"My post was intended for the serious breeders not the photoshop expert." <---i doubt any serious breeders would even bother to address your post, they wouldn't be able to stop laughing long enough to do so...

" Any fool can manipulate and breed an image on his pc."<---- the pictures were posted to try and illustrate a point...

"If you don't see where I am going with this, you'll never will." <--- I'm not a geneticist, but I have enough of a basic understanding to realize that you're talking out of your *ss....it's sad that I'll never experience the enlightenment of this advanced knowledge you claim to possess... : : :


thanks for a good laugh, dan (flounder discus) ;D

[Denny]

i think i'll gdawc- antone else? ;D

denny

Roundhead ??....where are you??....c'mon, no more hit and run posts! Im not looking for a fight...I would just like you to explain some of the comments you made. This is a great topic.
You cant just make statements like you did, then get mad and storm off in a huff > because you recieved some static. you just make yourself look foolish. Your statements imply that you know something we dont?? Please share it with the rest of us.

Tony

David,
I'll talk to you nicely.
Please leave out all of your bias reasonings may it be an economic strategy or personal preference for the "Wild and Home Grown" fish.

First of all, I am not dishing out personal attacks.
Secondly, what is there to be embarrass about?
I am no PhD in genetics, but my feet is still wet in this field.

I made a challenge to see proof of anyone's so called grossly inbred fish. All I get is a generic UKC/AKC comparison from a "Nobody". It doesn't make any sense to me when people make these outrageous prejudice claims about inbreeding and can't back it up. Ever study the peds for a winning dog or horse. The prior generation looks like a cross but look deeper. You don't need a club to register your fish. All you need is a book and a pencil to record the history of your family of fish. Hell, you don't need a stinking camera with photoshop to keep record. Just mark all of your fish. "Marking fish" is whole new topic.

My topic was not intended to go this way but I have a perfect story to relate to your inbreeding fear. Take it any way you want.
I have a friend who was an old high school professor. He has two types of discus for more that 20 years. He was the one who got me interested in teh fish. These two types are the common brown and the original Wattley T. He keep these two type going all this time from a single pair without introducing any new blood. He has never even cross them together and they all look identical to type; like clones. They eat the same and chit the same. To this day his fish are big and healthy as a horse.
Here is the secret of inbreeding if you care to know. Very simple.

1. Have a goal and stay with it.
2. Brother x Sister and line.
3. And most important is selectivity.

He only keep fish to his standard and projected program.
If they missed a meal, he cullem.
If they turned dark for a few minutes, he cullem.
If they constipate, he cullem.
If they swim alone, he cullem.
If they eat fry more than 3 times, he cullem.
If they have a different color or pattern, he cullem.

I thought he was ruthless when I was a kid. But since I passed his class, I know he is a professional. And I bet my life that some of the hardcore breeders are like this.
I could point out a fish and he can tell me about the breeding and show it on paper tracing it back to the beginning.

So you can tell me whatever you want about the negative affect from inbreeding, I will not believe you unless you have walked the walk.

Believe it or not, the ******* sprays my whole body from head to toes with disinfectant every time I visit his place just because I have discus.

Lane,

Show us the way. Take the fish you received from Pompadua Discus and trace the family history for us. If you can't do that, then take any fish you currently own and trace its history for us. In all cases your tracing will end with the purchase of the fish from the breeder as that information will not be made available to you.

And no one is speaking of a fear of inbreeding. They're speaking of the value of improving the genetic makeup of a fish that has been subject to inbreeding by introducing wild fish into the breeding program. Why is Wattley doing it? Why was Jordan? Mike Wells got some, so did Cary. Why are all these breeders doing it? They're not answering your question, we're just giving our opinions. I agree, none of us are breeders with any real knowledge. Apparently neither are you so our opinion is as valid as yours. We support our opinion that introducing wild blood into a Discus breeding program is a useful thing to do by pointing to largescale breeders that are doing. How do you support your opinion that it's unnecessary?

Dave

[Ralph]

I don't know if you need another nongeneticist's opinion here, but...

My understanding of inbreeding problems is that it is more a question of percentages. A recessive trait may show up in one birth in 10,000 in a mixed gene pool but could be one birth in 100 or even 1 in 4 with inbreeding. Even undesired dominant traits (such as webbed toes in humans) show a much higher occurance in "closed" populations. That is not to say that inbreeding is wrong or that healthy beautiful fish can't be achieved, but like your professor, the cull rate will go up. And some undesirable traits such as poor parenting skills. infertility, etc. won't show up until adulthood.

David,
Look on the bright side a bit will ya.
Why be so negative about everything.
If I could trace the line back to a So. American river, you will then ask me to trace those fish back further to the lake which feeds that river.

Don't you know already that we have more control things which are in our possession and of our creation.

Last but not least. No disrespect for anyone. Out of all the names you mention, to my knowledge only Wattley is the key example because he created his own well established strain. Good luck to all the dedicated discus breeders. I know that Cary is on a serious mission to break new grounds. And again I'll bet my life that any future well established strain from these guys will be heavily inbred. The strong lines and the weak lines being produced will show you the difference between a breeder with good eyes for selectivity and a breeder with great eyes for selectivity.

I understand exactly what you are talking about refreshing the gene pool. So I would like to ask you a couple of simple questions concerning this "Mad" idea of going back to the wild. Given the fact that a wild fish is more likely to be genetically diversed than a domestic fish and that any cross with a wild fish will produce a higher variance than a cross with a domestic fish. True?

1. What is your goal when you put a specific Dom. Male and Wild female together?
2. Do you have a goal or just crossing your fingers and wishing for something extraordinary to appear?

Reminded me of a story when a Hill Billy crossed a man-eater pitbull to a wolf hoping to create an ultimate fighting machine. He pitted this cross to a highly inbred pit dog and lost a bucket of money. He still kept these worthless dogs and they ended up killing his wife and kids. This guy did not have a brain nor any vision, he only had greed and wishful thinking

Peace.

There's no doubt that your professor's breeding program could be stretched out to the absolute max with such a huge cull rate.
I was under the impression that we were talking about "the general population" of discus we have on the market today?? Or that you were refering to the "average proffesional breeder"?? There's no way in the world that a proffesional breeder could run a program like that and still pay the bills at the end of the month. Oh....wait!...unless he sells all the rest of the genetically inferior, "HIGHLY INBRED CULLS" to the general public and keeps the genetically superior fish for his own breeding program. This is not rocket science were talking about here Lane....look a bit futher than your professors back yard...at whats happening in the real discus world. How do you think you got ahold of all those sub-standard fish from Pompadou??

I'd be interested to know at what generation your friends fish are at...and what the cull rate is today vs. 20 years ago. Im sure that Info is right at his fingertips.

Tony

Look on the bright side a bit will ya.
Why be so negative about everything.
If I could trace the line back to a So. American river, you will then ask me to trace those fish back further to the lake which feeds that river.

There is nothing negative about asking you to provide the same evidence that you asked us to provide. I will accept whatever information you can provide about the history of the fish that you received. I highly doubt that you will trace it back past it's parents (if you can even get that far), let alone a South American river.

The premise of this thread is that you have information that debunks the theory that introducing wild Discus into your breeding program is a good thing. So far all you've done is ask us for details, you've provided nothing. I think you've got nothing to give but innuendo. Rather then giving examples of other animals why don't you limit your discussion to Discus and explain why adding wild Discus to a pool of domestic Discus is a bad or unnecessary thing?

Dave

OK,
You rule David.
I am such an idiot for not giving you the credit you so rightful deservce.
Good Luck with those beautiful wild brownies.
Can't wait to hear about those super dupper hybrid brownies hitting the market. If they look and act good, I'll pay top dollar for them too. Really! But we all know it ain't going to happen. Maybe inbreed doms with inbreed brownies, but nothing straight from the wild is going to make an impact to the discus world.

Common people, this economic strategy has no leverage.
Just an excuse to steer people away from the poorly breed and treated fish hitting the market lately. Damn, trust me I know about nasty fish.
Its the right source that you got to go to for great fish thats all. Hey, different strokes for different folks. You like brownies, more power to ya. But don't spread lies about this idea that the wild brownies are a must to refresh the doms grossly inbred gene pool. Again good luck, you're going to need it.

Dun here. Its winter steelheading for me now.