YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!

[RandalB]

Hi all!

It seems that one of the most common questions that I see in the Water Works section is on how to modify pH.

For the most part there is absolutely no need to change your pH.

If growing out Baby or Juvenile Discus, there is no need to change it unless it is acid or basic enough to melt them.

If you are trying to breed adults, you might have to modify pH to induce them to spawn but probably not!

I make RO units and help people with water questions very frequently.

I have talked to people that have tap water with a wide range of pH values and hardness from soft to rock hard. People with pH of 8.5 report the same sucess with raising and keeping discus as people with 6.0 out of the tap. I personally Keep all my discus (except my breeding pair) at a pH of 7.8 with GH of 8 and KH of 6. The breeding pair is at 7.2 due to the addition of RO water that I use to lower TDS.

There is no magic pH value or TDS Reading

Consistency in the quality and parameters is more important than anyone's arbitrary set values for water chemistry. There is no absolutely exact value for raising and keeping discus. Giving them consistent pH of 8.0 is better than bouncing your water's pH around with chemicals and additives trying to get that magical 6.8. It's a lot cheaper too both in chemicals and the health of your fish.

If your Tap water pH changes with aging, age your water and do your water changes. If it stays the same and high, just use it as is and do your water changes. Your fish will be happier in the long run.

I Personally killed quite a few angelfish and assorted tropicals (dozens in fact)when I was starting out because a LFS employee told me I HAD to have a pH of 7.0 for a community tank. So I bought the pH up and down and the Proper 7.0. I added it and the pH went all over the place. I could'nt figure out why my fish died after I did a water change. It's a miracle I'm still into aquariums it was so frustrating. But a good LFS owner (Trying to sell me Discus in fact) told me that was crap and my fish stopped dying almost immediately. So here I am today, 9 tanks with more on the way just waiting for my first pair to get it right. (4th spawn on the 16th! Not yet, but they keep trying!)

A good rule of thumb:
If you can drink your tap water your fish will be fine in it.


Excuse the running off at the keyboard, I hope it helps someone.
RandalB

[Carol_Roberts]

Carol

[roger]

I think someone needs a hug

My fish do fine in liquid rock water here in florida. They spawn like mad, of course they are just teasing me.

So unless your trying to work with wilds or breed your fish then consistant water will make your fish happy.

Peace,
Roger

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
I would like to "second" that thought by Randal! I too believe that pH plays a much smaller role in the health of discus than has been the popular thought. This is the reason I DO NOT bother testing pH until I see a problem arise, like skittish fish, as was the case when my pH had dropped to 3.7 ONE TIME! I would caution that a person should know their W/C pH(along with the other params) and know how it's components affect the chemical makeup and reactions in a water body. This will save a lot of undue stress on the fish! Good post, Randal!


Steve

[fossil]

When I first started off with tropical fish, I also had the same thing happen to me, I had a nice pair angels that died because I thought I had to have the PH at 7.0 :-[

O well I have learned. Good idea to make the whole PH thing clear.

[Jaker]

I have read with interest your comments about not altering the PH of your water. I have well water with a ph of 6.2 and I alter it to 6.8-7.0 because of everything I've read. I notice that when my ph drops to below 6.8 my discus become very aggressive and spook easily when I approach the tank to feed them. At a Ph of 7.0 they seem to calm down and come up to the surface to feed when I approach. Also, what do you do if you have a ph of 6.2 and you buy a new discus from a breeder that keeps his water at 7.0 or higher, doesn't the large change in ph adversely affect the fish?

[Carol_Roberts]

You can raise the pH in the quarantine tank for new fish to match the pH they are used to and then lower it with water changes.

Your discus should be fine in a pH of 6.2 ???

With my well I find the pH rises naturally. Have you testd water both directly from the tap and water that has set out in a cup overnight? What are the two numbers?

[Steve_Warner]

[quote author=Jaker link=board=5;threadid=6312;start=0#72028 date=1044224936]
I have well water with a ph of 6.2 and I alter it to 6.8-7.0 because of everything I've read. I notice that when my ph drops to below 6.8 my discus become very aggressive and spook easily when I approach the tank to feed them. At a Ph of 7.0 they seem to calm down and come up to the surface to feed when I approach. Also, what do you do if you have a ph of 6.2 and you buy a new discus from a breeder that keeps his water at 7.0 or higher, doesn't the large change in ph adversely affect the fish?
[/quote]

Hi all,
Jaker, how do you modify your pH to 7.0? Have you tried to vigorously aerate and let it sit for 24 hours or so and test pH then? I keep my discus(9) in water with pH in the 5's and 4's. They are very healthy, happy, hungry and vibrant. I have NO problems with skittishness, so I feel that there is something else going on in your tank besides the pH thought. You might have some dissolved gasses due to well pressures in the water or toxic salts of some sort(metals?) causing those reactions. There are many variables which could be causing those reactions(shadows, even!). Can you give us a very thorough description of ALL things in the water or coming into contact with it, please? Carol has stated a great suggestion for acclimating a new discus to a differing pH environment. Just some thoughts

Steve

[Jaker]

Hey Steve, Thanks for the reply and your thoughts on my situation. With respect to your request for more info on my water the following is provided. I have a 55 gal Aquarium with 4 med size tank raised discus (2 red turks, a cobalt blue and a red marlboro). The tank has 2 to 3 inches of substrate, a piece of driftwood, 4 rocks and is fairly well planted with Amazon Sword plants. For tank mates, I have one placo and a cory cat. The tank has been set up for about a year and 3 or the 4 discus have been in it that long. I bought them at 2 inches and now they have grown to 4 inches and the one red turk is about 5 inches. My water is strictly well water and quite aggressive coming from the well head. I try to calm it down passing it through 2 sediment filters, an acid neutralizing tank charged with calcite and a water softner. At the faucet the water is around 6.0-6.2. I buffer the water with Sodium Bicarbonate (good ole Arm&Hammer Baking Soda) to a 6.8-7.0 ph. The hardness is 15dH. I keep the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels low with 20% water changes every 3 or 4 days. I vacuum the substrate on a weekly basis. I have not had a complete water analysis done but I do know that I have clear water iron in my water and I suspect copper that is leeching out of my plumbing, due to the acidic nature of my well water. As far a filtration is concerned, I use an undergravel filter w/a power head on each of the 2 lift tubes and an outside box filter with carbon floss inserts and 2 bio wheels. When vaccuming the gravel, the water gets a somewhat turbid so I add an additional outside floss filter/airator for a couple of hours which aggitates and clears the water very nicely, I'm sure the plants don't like it but the water gets crystal clear. Other than that I can't think of anything else that might be affecting my discus. They seem to be healthy and happy other then when the ph drops and they get aggressive and spooky. Any additional thoughts, comments or suggestions are welcome. Other then eating more food, any thoughts as to why the one grew bigger and faster than the others, which are all about the same size. Happy Trails, John

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Randall
I agree with you 100% except when it comes to breeding, you will always get a much better hatch rate at ph 5.5 than you will at ph 7
Dennis

[BlueTurquoise]

Pascale and I don't check our PH values, ever... I used to do it all the time once back when I first started and was fooled into thinking that I had to fool around with PH.

Nowadays I have no idea what my PH or GH, kh or TDS is and honestly I really don't care. They breed in the water i give them and succuess rate is pretty good never the less.

I ask Henry (dude with a fish room and about 100 Discus nearby to me) what his PH is and he said flattly "what? I dunno?" hehe

Edit: Ok Pascale you win! Pascale asked Henry! LOL

Chong

[Shari]

I've thought often about doing water changes to slowly raise my Discus from the 6.8-7.0 PH they are at now.
I use Seachem Regulator then the Buffer to get it down from tap of 7.6-7.8.
I had a problem a couple times where I was at about 7 at 10pm and awoke to find the PH dropped to 6.2. I worry about that for the fish's sake. The Discus in the tanks were new and I've never tried it since. Do any of you use a regulator to at least keep it near the tap PH ?

I'de love to stop messin with the water....

[RandalB]

Shari,
You are on Chicago Municipal water out there in Bolingbrook. Your pH is 7.86 (I have a pH meter!) (OK I have boxes of them...)your General Hardness is 8 and Your Carbonate Hardness is 6. The Gh and Kh might fluctuate seasonally but your pH will remain constant from the tap.

My $0.02 is: Stop trying to alter your pH. Your fish will do just fine at your Tapwater conditions. I have 26 Discus ranging from juveniles to adults in Chicago tapwater with no modifications. My breeding pairs get Chicago tap/RO water mix at a 50/50 ratio to promote higher hatch rates.

To bring your water up to tap conditions do 25% tap water W/C's.

As my first post said, consistency is more important than magical values. You can be consistant by providing tap water and doing regular changes. Worry about TDS and pH when they are breeding.

HTH,
RandalB

[Smokey]

amen.... your so right .
I keep all my discus in peat filtered water; reason.. to lower the gh/kh. Liquid rock water. The pH, nicely, stays at ~6.8 - 7.0.
P.S.- the peat is NOT in the tanks; I pass my tap water through a large 5 gallon container of peat, heat, treat[ammonia] and aireate.

The discus - 7 adults and 11 juviniles are doing just fine... and I like the tinted water look...so do they.

Smokey

[Mat]

Hello to all, this is my first post on this forum please be gentle..
You dont need to change your ph?, im glad its been hard enough as it is hah, seriously though i have an r.o unit im mixing 50%R.O with 50%tap im getting a ph of 7.4 and gh 5 kh 3. As experienced Discus keepers do you have any comments/reccomendations in regards to these readings?
i appreciate consistency is important but i do worry that the ph is too high,my discus x4 red turqs(more to come) seem ok but id like to be sure..
Sorry for dragging this on but you all must have gone throught this worrying about perfection phase. Cheers Mat ;D