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Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
This all goes back to the original disscussin - provide constant, stable water ... AND ... do those water changes.
Smokey
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
I am interested in wilds and naturally I always wonder about them being kept in their 'natural' water. I had the oppurunity to pm wildthing (aka David Webber) from wilddiscus.com. He imports wild discus to breed and sell.
This was part of his message:
keeping wilds is easy, they are tougher than domestics IMO, as they are already proven survivors. Breeding is also the same, as you say, soft slightly acidic water, but just for keeping them that is not necessary
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
Hmmmmm. someone has certainly caught the "OBSESSION ".
Danke
I was wondering...
I have tap water that is hard, but not extremely so. My tap water pH is 8.5-9.0
Is that really going to be ok? And is there any way to use peat without having brown water?
Oh and one other question: why does the inside of the aquarium need to be wiped down weekly? Will it hurt the discus not to do so, simply to scrub algae when it occurs, and do a regular weekly water change?
Thank you,
Rob
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
Hi Rob,
On the brown water...filter thru peat fisrt then a carbon block to remove the brown.
on the wiping the tank wall... Discus generate a lot of slime.... The side walls tend to get slick with slime, abd bacteria. Too much so and theres a chance that it could lead to a disease problem.. or maybe just make it so you can't see your fish. I know some have even thought that The organic build up... caused anaerobic conditions in the tank.
I don't wipe my tanks daily... but I do it every few days.
-al
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
Rob ; Is you really from Sask-a-bush ??
Only the second person to admitt-so !!!
Welcome to the SimplyDiscus world.
I see you are wondering about the water quality; up your way. I can help you. However, like Al mentioned, to remove the brownness - you need to pass the peat conditioned water through carbon .
MPO/MPE - If you wish keep / breed any speices from south america - peat conditioned water is necessary.
Not a personal suggestion. Nature works in different ways./
Smokey
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
I've problem with fluctuating ph levels and hope that any one of you out here could advice me on stablising the ph level....
water straight from my tap has a high ph of betw 8.0 to 9.0. I aged the water overnite with aeration and that brings down the ph to abt 7.3+, which I then used for my water change routine (abt 30% daily).
However, the tank water kept showing a low ph of abt 5.4+ (sometimes hitting a low of 4+) the following day eventhough I conduct water change daily. Is there anyway to raise and stablise the ph level at abt neutral 7.0? will adding small piece of coral chips help?
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
Rigth you are Al.
However , I do have one inquirery - I am at a loss as to the effectiveness of the peat after being carbon cleaned .
As you know, all my discus /angels, have been on peat conditioned water since day one. pH@ 6.8 all the way up to 7.4;[ I experiment a bit.].
The KG/GH numbers determine [my tank] pH.
eg - when I run raw tap water through a container of fresh peat.... The first 5 gallons of water are very soft, very soft. the KH is as low as 2 ppm, Gh at 25 ppm. the pH is below 5.5. As more water has passed through the peat, say 100 gallons u.s. - the numbers of the peat conditioned water are :
pH-6.9
KH-70ppm
GH-125ppm
The peat container has 3 gallons of peat moss, in this case.!
{ my current holding tank is a 120 gallon tank, so I adjust the amount of peat I put in the "peat bomb". ]
Back to your orginal suggestion, Al. running the peat conditioned water through a caron block; to remove the brown-ness.
would the carbon remove the medical qualities of the peat conditioned water ?
I have placed fish. in peat cond. water, that had visably signs of fungus infections and gram negative bacterial infections. IMobsevatios - the fungus/.bacteria infections cleared up in two to three days.
What are your thoughts. Ideas.
Smokey
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
I don't know if carbon filtering reduces the effects of peat moss, if you run a DE filter on your holding container the browny colour will be a bit less.
We really have to move beyond this low ph+ hardness issue, yes that's what it is in the spawning season-but there is alot of other factors at work.
and the absolute bottom line is.
conditions change from not favourable to produce offspring to a condition where it is favourable to produce young.
nature is a survivor and it will survive, the fish's whole goal in life is to pass its genes on to the next generation, and if enough conditions are right it will, that could be in ph5.5 and 2gdh or not!
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
I use to raise Discus about 9-10 years ago, and I have cared for freshwater fish for several years prior. I am trying to get back into things. I have 65 gallon tank and that has been completely cycled. I am trying to reacquaint myself with the latest trends and practices. I have read five different books. One on general freshwater fish care and maintenance, and the anothers on Discus specifically. And have I been talking to representatives from a reputable fish store.
I have been getting conflicting information. When I raised discus before, my tap water was already relativity soft and had a pH of 7. I live in Arizona now, and the water is very hard and the pH is about 8.2-8.4 out of the tap. On one hand I have heard (read) that Discus water needs to have a low pH and the water needs to be soft. This is how I used to maintain my discus years ago, but I had very little prep-work to do for a water change, because the water was already soft and had a low pH. I mostly just put peat in my filter and of course removed the Chlorine. On the other hand, I am also hearing that frequent water changes are most important, regardless of the tap waters pH, and that hybrid discus can handle the much higher pH’s and hard waters. As long as the pH does not fluctuate more than .2 during water changes, the discus can thrive just the same in the harder and higher pH waters.
One of the guys, at the fish store I mentioned, said he raises angelfish and Discus, and he does not adjust his pH at all. In addition, he does not add softer water, or use a reverse osmosis pump. He just adds “Tropical Science- Amazon Rain” while doing a water change. This guy, and the bottle says, this will soften the water. This can not soften the water. He is adding something to the water, so the osmotic pressure will increase. Soft water has less salts (less stuff) and therefore is has a lower osmotic pressure. Adding something to water can not really make the water softer, can it?
I have been reading the simply discus forum for several weeks now and I have read many comments. There still seems to be a lot of controversy over water quality and maintenance. Some will say the water needs to be 6.5-6 pH, while others tell you it just does matter unless you are breeding. I have read many of the forums discussions on this topic, and most agree that frequent water changes are more important than low pH and soft water. But why is there still the controversy? I even got an email from a reputable breeder in the USA, that stated to raise discus I have to have my water pH between 6-6.5. :-\
What if your tap water has a very, very high pH? Like 8.5, and is extremely hard? Can you get by with it to grow discus in a community tank? I just want a simple answer. Will my discus suffer? Or do I need make a some sort of elaborate water prep system (ie peat bomb)? :-\
I look forward to hearing from you all
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
Hi BigBoy, Welcome to SimplyDiscus
I don't know that I'd be listening to the guy at the fish store.any time you add something - even Tropical Science Amazon Rain to your fish tank you raise the Total Disolved Solids (TDS) which may increase hardness.
The only time I worry about hardness is when I want eggs to hatch.
My water is GH 11, TDS 176, pH 7.8
Your pH is higher than mine. Do you know what your GH or TDS is? I know we have folks in the Rockies and other hard water places raising discus - many in tap water.
Beth in Lousiana has some discus in pH 9.0+ water.
You may have to agitate your holding water to off gas CO2 in order to stablize your pH. I run a pond pump in my holding barrels for 3 hours to stabilize my water.
I suggest you give it a try and see how the discus do.
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
Jim,
You have mail.
As info for the whole board,
What you are referring to is a common misconception and the confusion relating to it. The term that is being used is "Soft" water. Soft water has more than one definition. One definition is the lack of Magnesium and Calcium in the water. This is also water that has been processed by a home water softener where the Mg and Ca have been replaced by sodium. This water if looked at with the other definition of soft water which is most commonly used here in discus breeding can be very hard. The most commonly referred to definition of soft water in discus keeping is the lack of Dissolved Solids or ionic content of the water. RO water by definition is "Soft" (very low or nonexistant TDS or uS).
Your Petstore by using the Blackwater,etc water treatments is removing the Mg and Ca content of the water. So by one definition, the product is "Softening" the water and by the other it is making it harder (adding to the TDS and uS of the water).
I don't think that this is a "Simple" answer. Unfortunately this is a controversial topic.
Let me suffice it to say that I know dozens of people who are keeping discus successfully at your pH. It's very likely that you would have no problems w/o elaborate water prep. I keep my discus at 7.8 pH.
HTH,
RandalB
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
Carol,
Thanks for the quick response. My GH is 13.
I have been reading about many of you agitating your holding water to stablize your pH. I have never done it. I will get a pump tomorrow and try it. I will let you know.
What about putting a nylon full of white peat in the holding container while you are agitating it? ???
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
Thanks for your quick response also, Randal.
I understand what you are saying about the reduction in Mg and Ca, but the increase of the TDS.
Re:YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!
Howdey Big boy;
Like yourself, I have hard water. pH - 8.0 / GH - 340 ppm / KH - 190 ppm.; and like yourself, I have bee inandated by different water vaules and methods for achieving such values.
As you are aware, I am an advocate for using Peat moss.
Simply, effective, fully controlable, reliable, and inexpensive.
Personally, my discus water is maintaned at 45ppm - 70ppm KH. pH is maintaned at 6.8 - 7.1. I do vary the water numbers [ as it is so easy to do so], from time to time.
My suggestion - choose the numbers you and the discus/community fish are comfortable with, and maintane them.
Your idea of using the peat to condition the make-up water, has always worked for me. AND REMAINS STABLE!
Smokey
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