YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!

[Woodduck]

20150409_152726_resized.jpg

[John_Nicholson]

I have the same book and I know exactly who Axlerod is but thanks.

-john

[Discus-n00b]

There are a million ways plus some to do things in this hobby and we are all passionate about our way of doing things. However what works for some may not work for others. The good thing about forums is you can share your successes and failures with everyone to develop more knowledge and progression in the hobby as a whole. The even better part is you don't have to do what other people are doing. There have been multiple posts on here about a WIDE range of pH's and the success that has come from them, spawning and raising fry included (pictures as well). I think a lot of people in this hobby K.I.S.S. and take what is given to them in their area and work with it. As we ALL know pH fluctuations do more damage than a high or low pH at a consistent level would by themselves so tinkering with it is not the best option for everyone, especially someone entering the hobby who has been reading those publications from the 60s-70s that say there is only one way to do things and they start trying to drop their water to amazon levels. I don't care if you keep Discus or Guppies that's true across the board. I never check the pH in my Tropheus tank but I know its not at rift lake levels. Fish are starting to breed, show great color, and eat everything I give them....however I refuse to chase a number. I think with wild fish you may have a case for a lower pH, but with domestic bred fish that are further removed from the amazon than the dinosaurs are from walking the earth (not really but you get the idea) then I don't agree with that.

Is that to say that pH of 6 and 8 are on an even playing field? Maybe, maybe not. I think it is general knowledge that harder water causes eggs to harden faster and prevents fertilization success especially with an inexperienced male. But to say one is better than the other is naive. There are so many other factors at play here. Put an average unconditioned pair in a tank with pH of 6, have a decent spawn. Put a well conditioned pair in a tank of 8 and have a gigantic spawn. On the surface you would side with the pH of 8 tank. But dig deeper and we're talking fish health, vitality, breeding experience (does the male know what he's doing)....everything beyond JUST the water. What it boils down to is a vast amount of water parameters are acceptable for these fish and we should no longer live in the 60s where everyone thought the discus would drop dead with anything but bottled amazon water.

I thank these gentlemen for their early contributions to the hobby but the fact is time has sped past them and they are relics of a different era. Do some of their methods and teachings still hold true? Of course. Is that the only way? Not even close. Brings me back to the forum. Thanks to technology now we have connections with people from all walks of life all around the world from breeder to hobbyist and we can see the vast differences in keeping/breeding techniques. The information is out there, you have to be the one that chooses what method you adopt for yourself and your own situation. There is a well worn path already cut through the woods, but does that mean you can't step off of it and still find the log cabin at the end? Not at all. We're all humans, we don't like change so once we find what works for us we stick with it and as is clearly shown we are passionate about letting others know about it.

Let us get back to the topic at hand, pH and not having to tinker with it for discus.

[brewmaster15]

Sigh... yet another pH battle....Without naming anyone, I can pretty much say we have people that have Discus happily swimming in waters that range from the 5.0s- mid 8s here.

But just for kicks and be cause I Really like the poll function... I'll run a poll to see where everyones water is at these days... aged..mines in the 7.6-7.8 range and I have kept domestics and wilds including Heckels in it for years.

al

[John_Nicholson]

Well said Matt.

-john

[XAnhLe]

There are a million ways plus some to do things in this hobby and we are all passionate about our way of doing things. However what works for some may not work for others. The good thing about forums is you can share your successes and failures with everyone to develop more knowledge and progression in the hobby as a whole. The even better part is you don't have to do what other people are doing. There have been multiple posts on here about a WIDE range of pH's and the success that has come from them, spawning and raising fry included (pictures as well). I think a lot of people in this hobby K.I.S.S. and take what is given to them in their area and work with it. As we ALL know pH fluctuations do more damage than a high or low pH at a consistent level would by themselves so tinkering with it is not the best option for everyone, especially someone entering the hobby who has been reading those publications from the 60s-70s that say there is only one way to do things and they start trying to drop their water to amazon levels. I don't care if you keep Discus or Guppies that's true across the board. I never check the pH in my Tropheus tank but I know its not at rift lake levels. Fish are starting to breed, show great color, and eat everything I give them....however I refuse to chase a number. I think with wild fish you may have a case for a lower pH, but with domestic bred fish that are further removed from the amazon than the dinosaurs are from walking the earth (not really but you get the idea) then I don't agree with that.

Is that to say that pH of 6 and 8 are on an even playing field? Maybe, maybe not. I think it is general knowledge that harder water causes eggs to harden faster and prevents fertilization success especially with an inexperienced male. But to say one is better than the other is naive. There are so many other factors at play here. Put an average unconditioned pair in a tank with pH of 6, have a decent spawn. Put a well conditioned pair in a tank of 8 and have a gigantic spawn. On the surface you would side with the pH of 8 tank. But dig deeper and we're talking fish health, vitality, breeding experience (does the male know what he's doing)....everything beyond JUST the water. What it boils down to is a vast amount of water parameters are acceptable for these fish and we should no longer live in the 60s where everyone thought the discus would drop dead with anything but bottled amazon water.

I thank these gentlemen for their early contributions to the hobby but the fact is time has sped past them and they are relics of a different era. Do some of their methods and teachings still hold true? Of course. Is that the only way? Not even close. Brings me back to the forum. Thanks to technology now we have connections with people from all walks of life all around the world from breeder to hobbyist and we can see the vast differences in keeping/breeding techniques. The information is out there, you have to be the one that chooses what method you adopt for yourself and your own situation. There is a well worn path already cut through the woods, but does that mean you can't step off of it and still find the log cabin at the end? Not at all. We're all humans, we don't like change so once we find what works for us we stick with it and as is clearly shown we are passionate about letting others know about it.

Let us get back to the topic at hand, pH and not having to tinker with it for discus.

+1

Great writing Matt.

[brewmaster15]

Poll posted...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-Water-pH-Poll

[DiscusBR]

There are a million ways plus some to do things in this hobby and we are all passionate about our way of doing things. However what works for some may not work for others. The good thing about forums is you can share your successes and failures with everyone to develop more knowledge and progression in the hobby as a whole. The even better part is you don't have to do what other people are doing. There have been multiple posts on here about a WIDE range of pH's and the success that has come from them, spawning and raising fry included (pictures as well). I think a lot of people in this hobby K.I.S.S. and take what is given to them in their area and work with it. As we ALL know pH fluctuations do more damage than a high or low pH at a consistent level would by themselves so tinkering with it is not the best option for everyone, especially someone entering the hobby who has been reading those publications from the 60s-70s that say there is only one way to do things and they start trying to drop their water to amazon levels. I don't care if you keep Discus or Guppies that's true across the board. I never check the pH in my Tropheus tank but I know its not at rift lake levels. Fish are starting to breed, show great color, and eat everything I give them....however I refuse to chase a number. I think with wild fish you may have a case for a lower pH, but with domestic bred fish that are further removed from the amazon than the dinosaurs are from walking the earth (not really but you get the idea) then I don't agree with that.

Is that to say that pH of 6 and 8 are on an even playing field? Maybe, maybe not. I think it is general knowledge that harder water causes eggs to harden faster and prevents fertilization success especially with an inexperienced male. But to say one is better than the other is naive. There are so many other factors at play here. Put an average unconditioned pair in a tank with pH of 6, have a decent spawn. Put a well conditioned pair in a tank of 8 and have a gigantic spawn. On the surface you would side with the pH of 8 tank. But dig deeper and we're talking fish health, vitality, breeding experience (does the male know what he's doing)....everything beyond JUST the water. What it boils down to is a vast amount of water parameters are acceptable for these fish and we should no longer live in the 60s where everyone thought the discus would drop dead with anything but bottled amazon water.

I thank these gentlemen for their early contributions to the hobby but the fact is time has sped past them and they are relics of a different era. Do some of their methods and teachings still hold true? Of course. Is that the only way? Not even close. Brings me back to the forum. Thanks to technology now we have connections with people from all walks of life all around the world from breeder to hobbyist and we can see the vast differences in keeping/breeding techniques. The information is out there, you have to be the one that chooses what method you adopt for yourself and your own situation. There is a well worn path already cut through the woods, but does that mean you can't step off of it and still find the log cabin at the end? Not at all. We're all humans, we don't like change so once we find what works for us we stick with it and as is clearly shown we are passionate about letting others know about it.

Let us get back to the topic at hand, pH and not having to tinker with it for discus.

[Woodduck]

It seems You should google him. Axelrod, not Axlerod. You jumped on my very first post very negatively and have not let up. Let's be friends with the same goals if not different means. Deal?
Woodduck

[John_Nicholson]

Good with me. I am not mad at you at all. I am just very straight forward and some folks don't take that well. It was not you I was going after it as your advice that I had issues with. Hope to see you at a NADA show at some point. We will sit around and talk fish....and there is nothing more funny then when one person post about a typo and then turns around and makes a typo f their own......LOL.

-john

[nc0gnet0]

Oh, and MANY discus owners do an 8ph? Name 10.

A guy new to the forum, but defintely not the sport has an opinion and the charter members jump on with both feet. I don't think anybody OR their discus would be happy with that high of ph. It's been known from Dr. Axelrodi's days and still applies. If they breed better and the fry do better, they're telling you something. I choose to listen. You can learn alot by listening.
Woodduck

You can add me to that list of 10. For the record I don't find pH a particularly useful measurement at all, but rather TDS is a more accurate assessment of what is really effecting the discus. Most of the myth from the early days regarding low pH had to do with the loose correlation of the two, and the fact many of the specimens hobbyist were working with simply had not been properly acclimated.

-Rick

[Discus-n00b]

and there is nothing more funny then when one person post about a typo and then turns around and makes a typo f their own......LOL.

Well now this is embarrassing.... LOL

And I agree Rick, TDS seems to be a far better measure.

[zchauvin]

After reading this mess I'll chime in and say that I've kept Wild Tefe greens in ph 8.4 and Tds of 440. They all came out perfectly fine... Then I tried to "fix" my water to better suite my heckels and boy was that a mess. 6.2 going in and 7.6 coming out, this after only 24hrs of being in the tank.

[cvarena21989]

Hello all,

I realize this thread is many years old and I apologize if I missed this being answered earlier beyond the "stable is key" quotes. I WILL be a new discus keep within the next few months when I move and purchase a house. I called water treatment facilities serving the area I'm going to move to and ph ranged from 7.6-8.4 depending on which particular facility is supplying the water. the hardness is roughly 220 ppm. I am in love with wild blues, would they survive in these conditions or would I be hurting them? I do not want to invest thousands in stock for me to kill them with their housing.

Chris

[coralbandit]

Get a TDS meter !
Before you invest you need the whole story of your water.
pH can be very misleading IMO .