certified breeders

[TnMark]

Let me tell you all a little bit about myself. I was an officer for one of the biggest employer health insurance companies in the country for 7 years and was in the industry for 20. I quit 3 years ago after refusing to help them steal money from a client. I have been working the last 3 years to stop them from stealing millions from their other clients and to get restitution for these companies.
I also had a bad experience in investing, and due to a lot of hype and recommendations from people I don't know invested in a risky bulletin board stock and have lost a lot a money. I know all of the arguments about research and due diligence, and I did as much as I could and still got
burned.
I am much more cynical than most everyone else on this board and have learned to trust nobody. I realize that I am not the norm. So maybe I have some baggage that others on this board don't have.
That being said, I'd like to make a few comments:

I am not lobbying for a certification. I am saying that a validation of breeders business practices is something that should be looked at. If Simply and DAAH can't or don't want to do it, a suggestion I have would be for the quality breeders to form an association, not necessarily to standardize quality but to offer recourse to unhappy purchasers. Since many of these quality breeders already have these poicies individually, by getting together to validate each other and exclude unethical breeders would enhance the good breeders status.
The LFS I buy from has good quality fish. I have purchased from them for 9 years and never had a problem. They are clearly not experts on Discus though and I would prefer to buy from a breeder. However, I do like the fact if I have a problem, I can go back to the store and I know they will fix the problem. Shipping is expensive. If I have a problem with a breeder, even a good one, additional shipping costs do add up.
This will be my final post on this subject. I did not mean to get everyone upset. What I have done is make reservations for the ACA show in Cinncinati where I look forward to meeting many of you to get to know you better.
I feel this board is a real asset to the Discus community and hope I didn't alienate you. You are a great resource.
Mark Neigut

[jeep]

Mark, I don't think anyone's upset with you, it's just easy to see that in a written word. There's no tone of voice to listen to. I think your question was a good one.

Many LFS's are good and respectable. Many more are not. You've heard from a lot of people that have had bad experiences and you have been given the logical reasons why discus and LFS don't traditionally mix. (no tone here ;D )

If you trust your own LFS, go for it. You said you can rely upon your LFS if there's a probelm? Maybe that's so and that's great. That's also not the case with all LFS's. When I mentioned the terrible discus for sale at rediculous prices near my home, the main thing that caught my eye was the fact that every fish they sell comes with a 3 week guarantee. Every fish EXCEPT discus. Once a discus is paid for they wash their hands of any further responsibility. By the looks of their fish, I would not expect them to make it more than a few weeks. Absolutley terrible!

Good luck in your purchase no matter who you end up doing business with...

Brian

[fcdiscus]

Hey Mark, Just FYI, Cary Strong is DAAH's only certified Breeder as of now! In my opinion, you are doing yourself an injustice by not giving him a try! Frank

[Liz_Streithorst]

Mark,

As my darling departed husband used to say, "Shoot (suit)yourself". In this case I think it applies.

Liz

[Don_Lee]

Welcome to the board Mark. You bring up good points, but IMO nothing beats experience and research. And even with that, nothing is guaranteed. Buying fish is like most other things, in some ways it is a calculated risk. I would hang around awhile, read up, and if you choose email privately people whom you pick to request opinions.

Don ;D

[Jeff]

Mark,

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to visit a breeder you are interested in and get a look first hand at their operation. I don't know anyone who would turn you down to wanting to see their hatchery.

[Kap]

TnMark:

You cannot go wrong purchasing your discus from Mike Wells. I live about 40 minutes from Mike, phoned him, and made an appointment to see his discus, with the intent of purchasing some young ones. He promptly returned my phone call, invited me to come, and took the time to answer all my questions. The pictures you have seen on Simplydiscus regarding Mike's operation are accurate-the fish you see are his-and the posts you read such as this one are real. Mike is cordial, sincere, and truly loves discus. He wants us to be successful with his fish because we will be satisfied customers and come back for more, and recommend him to our friends. I am doing this unsolicited and without his knowledge or even permission to make these comments. Do yourself a favor and visit Mike or a breeder within driving distance of where you live. See for yourself. You can even save the shipping charge and apply it toward some fish you get to pick out yourself-from the person who successfully bred the parents, raised the fry, and now offers hundreds for you to choose from! What an experience-you will never have the range of choices in your LFS! E-mail some of the people who often post here and ask about their experiences, what they have heard, and what they recommend. I do not think you can go wrong following the seasoned advice you will find among these many posts on so many topics related to keeping the king of aquarium fish!

TnMark,
First off I do not know you from a man in the moon. But as God as my witness: You can buy from Cary, Mike, or Jeff and I will guarntee that you will not find any better fish from anyone else! These fine gentleman care about these fish, they are not aka DISCUS PIMPS. They honestly care about the fish and you the buyer. They want it to be a win win situation for everyone involved, and they BACK their fish 100%.
But you are a grown up (over 18) so spend your money anyway you like.

Miles

[daddyg70]

Mark,

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND BUYING FROM AN EXPERIENCED BREEDER/DISTRIBUTOR. THIS IS WHY:

I have a 60g tank and started out with 3 very good quality discus from an LFS. My wife got them for me for xmas 2002 and fell in love with them. I felt I needed to get more because two larger were harassing the smaller. I wanted to spread the aggression around. After reading books, message boards and breeder/distributor websites I learned that QUALITY discus comes from breeder/distributors. Luckily, I found two in my area (Los Angeles) and I did not want to pay for shipping.
One of them is Jeff at discusfarm.us. He just posted a message on this topic. He was closer to my home. When I called him for discus availability, he said he had discus but could not sell because they were still in quarantine. So I had to drive one hour to Orange County to an "authorized" Wattley discus distributor. He was very helpful and I bought two Wattley Red Panda and an imported blue diamond. Even though I did not quarantine them, they are doing great now and they look nicer than my original three.
I did end up buying one more from Jeff last weekend. He is very knowledgable and friendly too. I originally went to his store to buy some california black worms (CBW) from him. I figured that he took good care of his CBWs since he fed them to his own stock. The LFS in my area just keep it in the fridge until they sell it all. When I arrived Jeff and his brother were busy doing water changes to all their tanks. Their fish are beautiful and look VERY healthy. I have never seen that quality in a LFS. These fish actually looked better than the fish I bought from the Wattley distributor! I had my wife take a look and thanks to her I spent 59 dollars more than I was planning to spend!

If I could start over again, I would only buy from an experienced breeder/distributor. As a fellow cynic, I wanted to see the fish first hand before I drop money. Luckily, I was able to do that. Good luck with your first discus. Just make sure you buy more than three!

Greg

[brewmaster15]

Goodluck Mark,

I hope your LFS is as good with Discus as they are with other fish. I also hope that they get them from a good breeder, and not just from a lowend wholesaler because they came in at a very good price for resale in the LFS market. I also hope they have the knowledge to know these fish do not belong in a central filtration system at water temps most other trops like, and that they do best with very frequent water changes, and a diverse diet consisting of more than just flakes. In my area, few if any know all this, fewer still have the resources or space to accomodate discus.

This will be your first purchase of Discus, I hope your experience is a good one, often times the first is so frustrating it becomes the last. I'dhonestly hate to see you go that route.

Its not anger you are seeing here, its genuine concern.

take care,
al

[mench]

Well lets see.....if you get told by x amount of people that Mike and cary,who by the way I have gotten fish from both of them,and all x amt of the people say that they are good people to by from and the same x amt of people say that it is bad to buy from the LFS...himmmmmmmm what is that saying..if it walks like a duck,sounds like a duck,looks like a duck,maybe it is a duck......And the thing about e-bay...I also have bought tons from e-bay that is until recently when someone hacked into my account and was selling expensive so called antique clocks and was useing my name and feedback and my phone number for a contact..you haven't lived till you start getting calls at all hours demanding to know ..where are the clocks tha I spent 900$ for and being threatend from anywhere from law suits to bodyly (sp) harm...so e-bay isn't all its cracked up to be either.....
Do what you want when you buy your fish,just don't come back on the board saying WAH WAH my fish are bad and dying and what can I do?????
Good luck with you fish quest....

Mench

[wildthing]

[quote author=TnMark link=board=21;threadid=6641;start=15#70872 date=1043967937]

I am much more cynical than most everyone else on this board and have learned to trust nobody.
Mark Neigut
[/quote]


Come live in NYC & learn how to be truly cynical!
IMO the kind of suspicions you have are a good survival mechanism!



DW

[Wahter]

Mark,

As it's been said, some LFS are better than others (some breed their own discus). I didn't recall seeing you say where you are located, but in my experience, most of the LFS I've visited have fish that aren't of the best quality - 'football shaped', 'disproportionate eye size', narrow foreheads, etc... what really irks me is seeing 2" discus with lots of bright red colors; these are mostly likely treated with hormones, etc... but as it's been said, many of the stores don't take care of the discus they have and see them as an expensive risk to stock. One of my first discus is a store bought fish that was sold to me as a colbalt blue - she turned out to be a brown. One shop in the Baltimore area that gets in nice discus is http://www.aquariumcenter.com

My big gripe about some of the LFS is that many times they don't have control of what they receive - I've seen many pretty pl*cos arrive with sunken eyes and sunken stomaches - on the brink of death. I've tried to bring a couple back to good health, but was unsuccessful (I think many of the members on this forum have tried to rescue some sickly LFS fish). I had asked the owner of one of the LFS here about getting some wild/ red spotted green discus - she was honest and told me that for her, it's a 'crap shot', sometimes they receive nice greens with a few spots, sometimes just plain greens - she said they literally never know what will arrive. So I ended up ordering a few from Alberto at http://www.aquatechnics.net . He took several photos of his fish and emailed them to me, so I could tell him which type of coloration/ markings I liked and sent those fish to me.


You definitely are right to be wary when shopping for discus. There are some sad and scary stories posted on this forum about some bad fish being sold as good quality fish. Depending on how much time and money you want to put into keeping discus, definitely talk with some breeders at length before making any decisions, and maybe you can take a short trip to visit a few breeders. I've been trying to compile my visits to various breeders and importers onto my website. (I still need to get over to Joe's http://www.enchanteddiscus.com). And everyone agrees, it's more fun and best to be able to hand pick the fish you want!!!

Again, you didn't say where you live (or maybe I missed it), but you can also sometimes (not always) find good fish at some of the aquarium club auctions. (not necessarily at great deals though - sometimes you do, sometimes you don't).

If you like the eBay feedback system, then you can read all the feedback which the customers have posted about specific breeders here. It's the same.

You're definitely doing things the right way though - do some research first, then get the fish. I think too many times we see people who get some live animal (puppy, kitten, chicken, hamster, fish, etc...) first then realize they didn't know what they were getting into!

HTH,

Walter

P.S. - here are the photos from my visit to Cary's place:

http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/disc...ary/index.html

[Monette]

When we see Discus in a LFS...*ALL* of the tanks where the Discus are housed have a little sign in the corner..."NO GUARANTEE ON DISCUS"

hmmmm tells me all I need to know!

[Nate]

You do realize that Mark is being blasted for doing the same thing that some of you are doing to the LFS'. The decision to buy fish he can see from an LFS instead of buying fish he can't see from a breeder is foolish? C'mon. Where is the sense in that. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a good fish from an LFS'. As long as quarentining procedures are used where is the problem? The idea that no LFS has good fish is not a very good one.

When we see Discus in a LFS...*ALL* of the tanks where the Discus are housed have a little sign in the corner..."NO GUARANTEE ON DISCUS"

hmmmm tells me all I need to know!

That's a pretty broad brush to be painting all LFS' with. We have places in Seattle that import their fish in from their family hatcheries in the orient. Some of the discus don't look too bad. I know a guy here that has been in the hobby for years and never purchased any fish directly from a breeder. He still seems to do just fine.

JMO,
Nate